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It’s entirely possible that Iron Mountain will be happy to turnover the data but needs a court judgement to do so without incurring more legal exposure. The art

It’s entirely possible that Iron Mountain will be happy to turnover the data but needs a court judgement to do so without incurring more legal exposure. The article says the system belongs to OSS. If this is something like a colo arrangement then probably that is the only reasonable position to take. They can’t just go crack open a customer’s server and pull data out of it for whoever asserts a claim on it.

kulahan 2mo ago
It still sucks for all involved, and it's a shame there's not a better solution here. It's gotta be so frustrating for the folks at PBS to keep getting hit like this.
- pirate787 2mo ago
  Actually it is PBS that bears responsibility here. Very likely the decision by PBS to hire OSS was corrupt (OSS are just a reseller of Iron Mountain) and they made no other provision to backup the files a second way, like AWS Glacier.
  - pavel_lishin 2mo ago
    > Very likely the decision by PBS to hire OSS was corrupt (OSS are just a reseller of Iron Mountain) That's making a lot of assumptions. I host some of my backups on what is effectively a reseller of S3; was that decision corrupt? But, yes, PBS does bear some responsibility here. If you leave your car in a parking lot overnight with the door open and the key in the ignition, the thief is still wrong for taking it, but there's a limit to how much indignity you can have.
    - alephnerd 2mo ago
      > PBS does bear some responsibility here PBS is an association of local public broadcasters, most of whom are SEVERELY underfunded.
      - roysting 2mo ago
        Although you are correct, the statement is still arguably correct.l, even if only accidentally. As the parent entity, the national PBS has a responsibility to guide and even mandate policies and provide best practice guidelines or even offer support and assistance in burden sharing arrangements. PBS has long now had major structural challenges due to things like internal corruption and overbearing control by the well funded chapters without commensurate responsibility. As with many such decentralized membership organizational structures, incentives can often be very misaligned between verticals and laterals.
  - vel0city 2mo ago
    Note, this wouldn't be PBS the national organization, this would be the local PBS affiliate who would have made this decision. The affiliates are extremely independent.
  - alephnerd 2mo ago
    > is PBS that bears responsibility here. Very likely the decision by PBS to hire OSS was corrupt Don't blame corruption for what was most likely extremely strained budgets. Local public access TV stations like KETC (Nine PBS) tend to be severely understaffed and underpaid. Realistically, they went with OSS because the quote for a local MSP was cheaper than the cost of hiring additional headcount (a $70k salary ends up costing roughly $100k for an employer). (Source: occasionally dealt with these kinds of accounts back when I was an SE and later PM) Edit: I'm right - they only have 1 IT/Software employee managing the entire organization which only has a budget of $30M after losing $1.8M in federal funding. Oof, that is a horrible position to be in with so many dicks on HN. You'd assume SWEs would have sympathy for other SWEs. Some HNers should have been taught better manners by their parents or should have at least internalized the lessons from Arthur as a kid [0]. If that employee sees this post - I want to say THANK YOU. It's a hard job. [0] - https://arthurwiki.com/wiki/Go_to_Your_Room,_D.W https://arthurwiki.com/wiki/Go_to_Your_Room,_D.W.
    - jrochkind1 2mo ago
      > You'd assume SWEs would have sympathy for other SWEs. Only if you haven't been reading HN very long!
      - alephnerd 2mo ago
        I have - this is my throwaway account, and my primary account has been alive since a little after YC moved from Boston. I hate HN and how it has gotten worse and worse as the years go by. There are a couple basic changes that the mod team could do to help alleviate the degradation but they aren't doing it.
        jrochkind1 2mo ago
        So you would probably not in fact assume SWEs would have sympathey for other SWEs then, I'd guess!
  - pjc50 2mo ago
    > PBS to hire OSS was corrupt (OSS are just a reseller of Iron Mountain) You're going to have to unpack the assumption here: are you alleging that there was a kickback in the procurement process?
dghlsakjg 2mo ago
They have a judgment against OSS ordering the data to be returned, and affirming ownership.
- mixdup 2mo ago
  That is not the same thing as a judgement ordering Iron Mountain specifically to release the data
  - doctorpangloss 2mo ago
    Maybe it isn't the same thing in the Iron Mountain Cinematic Universe. Consider this: the utility that provides the electricity and the ISP providing internet also do not have a direct relationship with Nine PBS, but will be essential in carrying out the court order. Does the judge have to expressly name every transitive party responsible for carrying out the order? Time will tell, but to me the answer seems "no."
    - jrochkind1 2mo ago
      it sounds like Iron Mountain specifically markets itself as "we will never turn over your data without a court order", so whether contractually obligated to do that or not, choosing to do that when they have a legal choice to do so is part of what attracts and keeps customers, and not choosing to do voluntarily would harm their business and lose them customers. Perhaps they could legally choose to turn over the data, but they choosing not to. A court order would give them no legal choice, and they would then turn over the data, and it would not harm their attraction or retention of customers, because that was always the deal, only with a court order.
    - namibj 2mo ago
      Pretty sure a court order to return say a "PlayStation Dev kit" a game studio employee had when he got fired during covid remote work mandates, if it's just against the employee personally, would not obligate me to let you in or carry it out to you if that employee left it on the middle shelf of my couch table having told me he'll be back after, say, taking unpaid and non-granted-despite-requested time off for his "common law wife if that was a thing in the state they're in, but legally just unrelated consenting adults (that haven't yet moved in together)" 's funeral and rounding it up to one whole week to grieve at their memorable places, after having crashed at my place (bringing his work with him, thus the dev kit on my table-shelf) as I live much closer to the hospital his "wife" was in for the past 3 weeks and he expressed some psychological worries about spending almost all of his time alone while the love of his life is dying.... In fact, I'd expect you to need a seizure-warrant/distinctly-named-but-to-the-layperson-identical-court-order for my place as, among other things, I don't think I am in a position to legally have standing to challenge an order that's not mentioning me, and lack of me being an active flight risk would probably preclude you from arguing exigent circumstances to secure the dev kit without a judge ordering me to let you. TL;DR: "complying" with a court order that's filed against a 3rd party is, IMO/AFAIK, a voluntary act, specifically because the party not mentioned in the court order AFAIK has no legal standing to challenge that very order of in court. _Precisely_ because they're not legally mandated to comply, at least not beyond perhaps taking a precautionary legal hold on the referenced information to not get accused of aiding in destruction of data in case the court-ordered party directs the non-mentioned party to delete through the regular customer relationship channels (API? Whatever else?).
to11mtm 2mo ago
Iron Mountain is typically very stringent on their retention/disposal policies. Storytime, since I'm no longer under NDAs for the company, over a decade ago somewhere that I worked, a disgruntled employee who decided to quit, made a point to within a week of quitting, take a whole bunch of important physical documents they had (because, FBOW, our email and other data retention was so bad, it was safer to have them as prints) and threw them all in our fancy Iron Mountain 'disposal' bin. Apparently due to the agreement with them, short of a court order, only specific employees/titles in the company were allowed to be the persons to retrieve them. Keeping that situation in mind, it's clear that this dance for better or worse is part of their posturing as a retention center with very strict rules to ensure compliance while also avoiding snooping.
- trollbridge 2mo ago
  Er... I assume a little time with a lockpick and/or an angle grinder could have recovered the documents?
  - alephnerd 2mo ago
    Hope you have (best case) a good lawyer or (worst case) good health insurance as well if you attempt physical intrusion. Their physical asset security team is hardboiled [0][1]. I've dealt with them as well - they don't like being in this kind of position either. [0] - https://ironmountain.jobs/manassas-va/armed-officer-safety-security/D45D2DAA46A4438C9E1D33DC3C5FB5C2/job/ https://ironmountain.jobs/manassas-va/armed-officer-safety-s... [1] - https://ironmountain.jobs/boyers-pa/security-officer-armed/62580945953F4B849665139DFB6116DB/job/ https://ironmountain.jobs/boyers-pa/security-officer-armed/6...
    - duttish 2mo ago
      I smell a Jason Statham movie
      - alephnerd 2mo ago
        I smell a felony case with a non-trivial chance of lead poisoning or a visit to a trauma center.

kulahan 2mo ago

It still sucks for all involved, and it's a shame there's not a better solution here. It's gotta be so frustrating for the folks at PBS to keep getting hit like this.

pirate787 2mo ago
Actually it is PBS that bears responsibility here. Very likely the decision by PBS to hire OSS was corrupt (OSS are just a reseller of Iron Mountain) and they made no other provision to backup the files a second way, like AWS Glacier.
- pavel_lishin 2mo ago
  > Very likely the decision by PBS to hire OSS was corrupt (OSS are just a reseller of Iron Mountain) That's making a lot of assumptions. I host some of my backups on what is effectively a reseller of S3; was that decision corrupt? But, yes, PBS does bear some responsibility here. If you leave your car in a parking lot overnight with the door open and the key in the ignition, the thief is still wrong for taking it, but there's a limit to how much indignity you can have.
  - alephnerd 2mo ago
    > PBS does bear some responsibility here PBS is an association of local public broadcasters, most of whom are SEVERELY underfunded.
    - roysting 2mo ago
      Although you are correct, the statement is still arguably correct.l, even if only accidentally. As the parent entity, the national PBS has a responsibility to guide and even mandate policies and provide best practice guidelines or even offer support and assistance in burden sharing arrangements. PBS has long now had major structural challenges due to things like internal corruption and overbearing control by the well funded chapters without commensurate responsibility. As with many such decentralized membership organizational structures, incentives can often be very misaligned between verticals and laterals.
- vel0city 2mo ago
  Note, this wouldn't be PBS the national organization, this would be the local PBS affiliate who would have made this decision. The affiliates are extremely independent.
- alephnerd 2mo ago
  > is PBS that bears responsibility here. Very likely the decision by PBS to hire OSS was corrupt Don't blame corruption for what was most likely extremely strained budgets. Local public access TV stations like KETC (Nine PBS) tend to be severely understaffed and underpaid. Realistically, they went with OSS because the quote for a local MSP was cheaper than the cost of hiring additional headcount (a $70k salary ends up costing roughly $100k for an employer). (Source: occasionally dealt with these kinds of accounts back when I was an SE and later PM) Edit: I'm right - they only have 1 IT/Software employee managing the entire organization which only has a budget of $30M after losing $1.8M in federal funding. Oof, that is a horrible position to be in with so many dicks on HN. You'd assume SWEs would have sympathy for other SWEs. Some HNers should have been taught better manners by their parents or should have at least internalized the lessons from Arthur as a kid [0]. If that employee sees this post - I want to say THANK YOU. It's a hard job. [0] - https://arthurwiki.com/wiki/Go_to_Your_Room,_D.W https://arthurwiki.com/wiki/Go_to_Your_Room,_D.W.
  - jrochkind1 2mo ago
    > You'd assume SWEs would have sympathy for other SWEs. Only if you haven't been reading HN very long!
    - alephnerd 2mo ago
      I have - this is my throwaway account, and my primary account has been alive since a little after YC moved from Boston. I hate HN and how it has gotten worse and worse as the years go by. There are a couple basic changes that the mod team could do to help alleviate the degradation but they aren't doing it.
      - jrochkind1 2mo ago
        So you would probably not in fact assume SWEs would have sympathey for other SWEs then, I'd guess!
- pjc50 2mo ago
  > PBS to hire OSS was corrupt (OSS are just a reseller of Iron Mountain) You're going to have to unpack the assumption here: are you alleging that there was a kickback in the procurement process?

dghlsakjg 2mo ago

They have a judgment against OSS ordering the data to be returned, and affirming ownership.

mixdup 2mo ago
That is not the same thing as a judgement ordering Iron Mountain specifically to release the data
- doctorpangloss 2mo ago
  Maybe it isn't the same thing in the Iron Mountain Cinematic Universe. Consider this: the utility that provides the electricity and the ISP providing internet also do not have a direct relationship with Nine PBS, but will be essential in carrying out the court order. Does the judge have to expressly name every transitive party responsible for carrying out the order? Time will tell, but to me the answer seems "no."
  - jrochkind1 2mo ago
    it sounds like Iron Mountain specifically markets itself as "we will never turn over your data without a court order", so whether contractually obligated to do that or not, choosing to do that when they have a legal choice to do so is part of what attracts and keeps customers, and not choosing to do voluntarily would harm their business and lose them customers. Perhaps they could legally choose to turn over the data, but they choosing not to. A court order would give them no legal choice, and they would then turn over the data, and it would not harm their attraction or retention of customers, because that was always the deal, only with a court order.
  - namibj 2mo ago
    Pretty sure a court order to return say a "PlayStation Dev kit" a game studio employee had when he got fired during covid remote work mandates, if it's just against the employee personally, would not obligate me to let you in or carry it out to you if that employee left it on the middle shelf of my couch table having told me he'll be back after, say, taking unpaid and non-granted-despite-requested time off for his "common law wife if that was a thing in the state they're in, but legally just unrelated consenting adults (that haven't yet moved in together)" 's funeral and rounding it up to one whole week to grieve at their memorable places, after having crashed at my place (bringing his work with him, thus the dev kit on my table-shelf) as I live much closer to the hospital his "wife" was in for the past 3 weeks and he expressed some psychological worries about spending almost all of his time alone while the love of his life is dying.... In fact, I'd expect you to need a seizure-warrant/distinctly-named-but-to-the-layperson-identical-court-order for my place as, among other things, I don't think I am in a position to legally have standing to challenge an order that's not mentioning me, and lack of me being an active flight risk would probably preclude you from arguing exigent circumstances to secure the dev kit without a judge ordering me to let you. TL;DR: "complying" with a court order that's filed against a 3rd party is, IMO/AFAIK, a voluntary act, specifically because the party not mentioned in the court order AFAIK has no legal standing to challenge that very order of in court. _Precisely_ because they're not legally mandated to comply, at least not beyond perhaps taking a precautionary legal hold on the referenced information to not get accused of aiding in destruction of data in case the court-ordered party directs the non-mentioned party to delete through the regular customer relationship channels (API? Whatever else?).

to11mtm 2mo ago

Iron Mountain is typically very stringent on their retention/disposal policies. Storytime, since I'm no longer under NDAs for the company, over a decade ago somewhere that I worked, a disgruntled employee who decided to quit, made a point to within a week of quitting, take a whole bunch of important physical documents they had (because, FBOW, our email and other data retention was so bad, it was safer to have them as prints) and threw them all in our fancy Iron Mountain 'disposal' bin. Apparently due to the agreement with them, short of a court order, only specific employees/titles in the company were allowed to be the persons to retrieve them. Keeping that situation in mind, it's clear that this dance for better or worse is part of their posturing as a retention center with very strict rules to ensure compliance while also avoiding snooping.

trollbridge 2mo ago
Er... I assume a little time with a lockpick and/or an angle grinder could have recovered the documents?
- alephnerd 2mo ago
  Hope you have (best case) a good lawyer or (worst case) good health insurance as well if you attempt physical intrusion. Their physical asset security team is hardboiled [0][1]. I've dealt with them as well - they don't like being in this kind of position either. [0] - https://ironmountain.jobs/manassas-va/armed-officer-safety-security/D45D2DAA46A4438C9E1D33DC3C5FB5C2/job/ https://ironmountain.jobs/manassas-va/armed-officer-safety-s... [1] - https://ironmountain.jobs/boyers-pa/security-officer-armed/62580945953F4B849665139DFB6116DB/job/ https://ironmountain.jobs/boyers-pa/security-officer-armed/6...
  - duttish 2mo ago
    I smell a Jason Statham movie
    - alephnerd 2mo ago
      I smell a felony case with a non-trivial chance of lead poisoning or a visit to a trauma center.