3 ms·

This is called: "going camping".

by greytape 2mo ago

xg15 2mo ago
Or "living in an apartment with affordable rent"...
- smallmancontrov 2mo ago
  > affordable That's the crux, isn't it? You aren't just dependent, you are dependent on a system that relentlessly stalks you with increased demands. You are tasked with keeping ahead of a pack of hunters who want to take you down -- and not only will your companions leave you for dead the moment that happens, the group will punish any suggestion that we might want to do something about this on a systemic level because they strive to join the hunters themselves. It's grim and people are correct to behave like it's grim.
  - xg15 2mo ago
    I think you need better companions.
    - smallmancontrov 2mo ago
      The electorate is what it is, but yes, I hope we can change the currently prevailing attitude.
    - palmotea 2mo ago
      Or his companions need to get better. I interpreted... >> You are tasked with keeping ahead of a pack of hunters who want to take you down -- and not only will your companions leave you for dead the moment that happens, the group will punish any suggestion that we might want to do something about this on a systemic level because they strive to join the hunters themselves. ...as referring to software engineers as a whole, because it fits. We're laborers, but a significant fraction of us has misinterpreted having a comfortable salary now as being capitalists themselves, so bought into libertarian propaganda and behave like they're temporarily embarrassed billionaires (for instance, by strongly resisting things like unionization). Unfortunately, too many of us who are actually interested in "[doing] something about this on a systemic level," are too pampered to have the focus to actually be effective, and get distracted and put all kinds of divisive stuff front-and-center (basically playing into the divide-and-conquer game of the bosses).
      - nradov 2mo ago
        If you want to be a capitalist instead of a laborer then you can just go do that. There's never been a better time to start a company and be your own boss.
        xg15 2mo ago
        Yeah, just become an Uber driver and you can be your own boss... oh wait, suddenly your only customer - Uber - can dictate exactly how you do your job. We've had that game before. Ask yourself why a the capitalists are so eager to make everyone else a "capitalist" too: Because the relationship between companies is even more adversarial and bent on domination than a formalized employer-employee relationship. Every CEO would love to have "independent contractors" instead of employees.
        throwthrowuknow 2mo ago
        Being an Uber driver has nothing to do with starting your own business. You don’t even need to start a business to be a capitalist, just buy capital that can earn you money. That can be as simple as putting a portion of your savings in stocks or as proletarian as buying a lawnmower and a trailer and mowing people’s lawns for extra cash.
        palmotea 2mo ago
        > You don’t even need to start a business to be a capitalist, just buy capital that can earn you money. Step 1: be rich. > That can be as simple as putting a portion of your savings in stocks or as proletarian as buying a lawnmower and a trailer and mowing people’s lawns for extra cash. No, that's not being a capitalist. You're not living of the proceeds of your capital, you're living off the proceeds of your labor. The proof: if you stop pushing that mower, your business (or your profits) collapse. "Being your own boss" != being a capitalist. Now if you can buy 100 mowers and 100 trailers and hire 100 people to push them (plus a couple managers), you might be able to become a bottom-rung capitalist.
  - Slow_Hand 2mo ago
    Today’s ways of living - no matter how challenging or disillusioning or alienating they may be - are largely preferable to literally being hunted and having your livelihood threatened by predators, compared to the figurative hunters and predators you’re describing. It ain’t perfect - and we’ll work to improve it - but it’s way better than the way it used to be for so many people. Civilization aint all bad.
    - watwut 2mo ago
      I do prefer modern living, but when people describe the horrors of the past, they go for movie horror version rather then anything actually resembling what historians describe as past.
    - xg15 2mo ago
      You're aware lots of people are already living on the street again? > and we’ll work to improve it Who is "we"? The people in power (or the dominant opinion at HN) don't even see a problem there.
    - smallmancontrov 2mo ago
      The Hobbes argument can be used to justify tyranny far worse than what we see. It does not prevent me from believing that substantial improvement is possible.

This is called: "going camping".

xg15 2mo ago

Or "living in an apartment with affordable rent"...

smallmancontrov 2mo ago
> affordable That's the crux, isn't it? You aren't just dependent, you are dependent on a system that relentlessly stalks you with increased demands. You are tasked with keeping ahead of a pack of hunters who want to take you down -- and not only will your companions leave you for dead the moment that happens, the group will punish any suggestion that we might want to do something about this on a systemic level because they strive to join the hunters themselves. It's grim and people are correct to behave like it's grim.
- xg15 2mo ago
  I think you need better companions.
  - smallmancontrov 2mo ago
    The electorate is what it is, but yes, I hope we can change the currently prevailing attitude.
  - palmotea 2mo ago
    Or his companions need to get better. I interpreted... >> You are tasked with keeping ahead of a pack of hunters who want to take you down -- and not only will your companions leave you for dead the moment that happens, the group will punish any suggestion that we might want to do something about this on a systemic level because they strive to join the hunters themselves. ...as referring to software engineers as a whole, because it fits. We're laborers, but a significant fraction of us has misinterpreted having a comfortable salary now as being capitalists themselves, so bought into libertarian propaganda and behave like they're temporarily embarrassed billionaires (for instance, by strongly resisting things like unionization). Unfortunately, too many of us who are actually interested in "[doing] something about this on a systemic level," are too pampered to have the focus to actually be effective, and get distracted and put all kinds of divisive stuff front-and-center (basically playing into the divide-and-conquer game of the bosses).
    - nradov 2mo ago
      If you want to be a capitalist instead of a laborer then you can just go do that. There's never been a better time to start a company and be your own boss.
      - xg15 2mo ago
        Yeah, just become an Uber driver and you can be your own boss... oh wait, suddenly your only customer - Uber - can dictate exactly how you do your job. We've had that game before. Ask yourself why a the capitalists are so eager to make everyone else a "capitalist" too: Because the relationship between companies is even more adversarial and bent on domination than a formalized employer-employee relationship. Every CEO would love to have "independent contractors" instead of employees.
        throwthrowuknow 2mo ago
        Being an Uber driver has nothing to do with starting your own business. You don’t even need to start a business to be a capitalist, just buy capital that can earn you money. That can be as simple as putting a portion of your savings in stocks or as proletarian as buying a lawnmower and a trailer and mowing people’s lawns for extra cash.
        palmotea 2mo ago
        > You don’t even need to start a business to be a capitalist, just buy capital that can earn you money. Step 1: be rich. > That can be as simple as putting a portion of your savings in stocks or as proletarian as buying a lawnmower and a trailer and mowing people’s lawns for extra cash. No, that's not being a capitalist. You're not living of the proceeds of your capital, you're living off the proceeds of your labor. The proof: if you stop pushing that mower, your business (or your profits) collapse. "Being your own boss" != being a capitalist. Now if you can buy 100 mowers and 100 trailers and hire 100 people to push them (plus a couple managers), you might be able to become a bottom-rung capitalist.
- Slow_Hand 2mo ago
  Today’s ways of living - no matter how challenging or disillusioning or alienating they may be - are largely preferable to literally being hunted and having your livelihood threatened by predators, compared to the figurative hunters and predators you’re describing. It ain’t perfect - and we’ll work to improve it - but it’s way better than the way it used to be for so many people. Civilization aint all bad.
  - watwut 2mo ago
    I do prefer modern living, but when people describe the horrors of the past, they go for movie horror version rather then anything actually resembling what historians describe as past.
  - xg15 2mo ago
    You're aware lots of people are already living on the street again? > and we’ll work to improve it Who is "we"? The people in power (or the dominant opinion at HN) don't even see a problem there.
  - smallmancontrov 2mo ago
    The Hobbes argument can be used to justify tyranny far worse than what we see. It does not prevent me from believing that substantial improvement is possible.