6 ms·

Physical abuse does not solve mental health issues. Ever. Submission is a terrible goal in raising children.

newbie12 14y ago
But in some cases, these are just behavior issues, not mental health issues. Indeed, prescribing pharma and telling a kid he's mentally ill might be compounding the behavioral issue.
- ForrestN 14y ago
  I never suggested medication, or telling a child that they are mentally ill. "I wonder if a nice beating would have done you any good." This was a response to a description of severe acting out by a child. A child threatening to kill herself or her parents is not an indication of sound mental health. Hitting them will make it worse. Sufficiently dysfunctional behavior defines what it means to have a psychological problem.
deleted 14y ago
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ampersandy 14y ago
Why do you assume that submission is the goal of the beating? Or that you know the best way to raise children?
- ForrestN 14y ago
  "Outcome: The problem was fixed. He became more subdued and never threatened to run away." What other goal would there be? The idea of corporal punishment is that child fears getting hit enough that they will stop acting on the motives they have which conflict with those of the parents. In other words, they will submit to the motives of the parents. Common sense aside, the fact that beating doesn't produce good outcomes for children is common knowledge in highly educated societies. The American Academy of Pediatrics says: "First, establish a positive, supporting and loving relationship with your child. Without this foundation, your child has no reason, other than fear, to demonstrate good behavior. [...] If you feel discipline is necessary, the AAP recommends that you do not spank or use other physical punishments. That only teaches aggressive behavior, and becomes ineffective if used often."
  - elpachuco 14y ago
    >>What other goal would there be? The goal for the drastic measures my mom took was to not loose her child. That he stopped being such a big brat was a bonus. He was still strong tempered, but at least he would no longer test my mother. And the threat of a beating kept the rest of us in line. We knew not to test her. All of my brothers and sisters grew up to be decent human beings. In case you are wondering, my brother never beats his kids, is enough for them to see him mad when they misbehave for them to fall in line. I concede, had he had a mental disorder it would probably not have worked. In this case though, I'm not sure the OP really had a mental disorder which is why I suggested the beating. Some kids will go to great lengths to manipulate you as much as they can. Anyway, this is just an anecdote so take it as such.
    - ForrestN 14y ago
      I'm not saying that beating your children will necessarily ruin their lives, or that children who are beaten can't grow up to be functional adults. But two things are true, to the best of my knowledge: - Beating does a worse job of correcting behavioral problems than more humane methods - Beating contributes negatively to how your children feel, in general Again, this doesn't mean that beating makes you sick, or that it never corrects a specific behavior. Only that it's not a good idea, and, however mildly on a case-by-case basis, it probably means you're mistreating your kids. I wouldn't suggest it to anyone regardless of whether or not you consider violently threatening to kill yourself and your parents, to the point that they are afraid for their lives, to be evidence of mental health issues.
      - koide 14y ago
        But, how to act after people have tried everything they could think of to no avail? Is medication a better solution than some spanking (especially when it's unclear a mental problem exists)? I wouldn't be so sure about that.
  - ampersandy 14y ago
    Beating your children isn't to manipulate them into becoming little slaves, it's to punish them for going against society's expected behaviour (which one might argue is its own form of slavery). Can you back up your claim that beatings produce poor outcomes for children in "highly educated societies?" Or that 'less educated societies" are inferior because they don't have qualms about spanking their kids when they misbehave?
deleted 14y ago
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ScottBurson 14y ago
I had the same thought at first, but reading the whole anecdote made me wonder. It's clear that the mother didn't do what she did just to indulge her own anger. She did, in fact, have her son's interests at heart. It was a last resort to get through to him. When you talk about submission as a goal, I think you have to ask, submission to what? If the goal is to get the child to submit to the parent's ego, as it so often is, then I agree with you. But parents have to set limits, and children have to submit to them.
PeterisP 14y ago
Well, it depends on where you draw the line - I mean, in our society we have agreed that we will force everybody to submit to certain rules, no matter what they want or what it takes to make them submit. As an example, if someone (for whatever reason) wants to kill his neighbour and take his goods/wife/house/whatever, then we'll force him not to do it, up to and including lethal force by lots of armed uniformed men. Continuing with the example, if a "kid" realistically threatens to perform criminal acts - such as shooting someone, robbing someone, raping someone - then submission is not optional, it's mandatory and it SHOULD be an absolute goal. The only question is how to make that submission happen in a humane manner - if the expected result is violence and a long prison term or death, then many means of forcing submission, such as threatening physical punishment or forced medication may seem quite reasonable.
dpatru 14y ago
Why is submission a terrible goal in raising children? Isn't submission to authority absolutely required to achieve success and stay out of jail? And once a person is an adult, physical abuse (police beatings, confinement with criminals, disgusting (http://www.npr.org/programs/wesat/features/2002/apr/loaf/) http://www.npr.org/programs/wesat/features/2002/apr/loaf/)) is the normal way rebellion is treated. And it seems to work. Most people avoid harming their neighbors and pay their taxes.

But in some cases, these are just behavior issues, not mental health issues. Indeed, prescribing pharma and telling a kid he's mentally ill might be compounding the behavioral issue.

ForrestN 14y ago
I never suggested medication, or telling a child that they are mentally ill. "I wonder if a nice beating would have done you any good." This was a response to a description of severe acting out by a child. A child threatening to kill herself or her parents is not an indication of sound mental health. Hitting them will make it worse. Sufficiently dysfunctional behavior defines what it means to have a psychological problem.

deleted 14y ago

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ampersandy 14y ago

Why do you assume that submission is the goal of the beating? Or that you know the best way to raise children?

ForrestN 14y ago
"Outcome: The problem was fixed. He became more subdued and never threatened to run away." What other goal would there be? The idea of corporal punishment is that child fears getting hit enough that they will stop acting on the motives they have which conflict with those of the parents. In other words, they will submit to the motives of the parents. Common sense aside, the fact that beating doesn't produce good outcomes for children is common knowledge in highly educated societies. The American Academy of Pediatrics says: "First, establish a positive, supporting and loving relationship with your child. Without this foundation, your child has no reason, other than fear, to demonstrate good behavior. [...] If you feel discipline is necessary, the AAP recommends that you do not spank or use other physical punishments. That only teaches aggressive behavior, and becomes ineffective if used often."
- elpachuco 14y ago
  >>What other goal would there be? The goal for the drastic measures my mom took was to not loose her child. That he stopped being such a big brat was a bonus. He was still strong tempered, but at least he would no longer test my mother. And the threat of a beating kept the rest of us in line. We knew not to test her. All of my brothers and sisters grew up to be decent human beings. In case you are wondering, my brother never beats his kids, is enough for them to see him mad when they misbehave for them to fall in line. I concede, had he had a mental disorder it would probably not have worked. In this case though, I'm not sure the OP really had a mental disorder which is why I suggested the beating. Some kids will go to great lengths to manipulate you as much as they can. Anyway, this is just an anecdote so take it as such.
  - ForrestN 14y ago
    I'm not saying that beating your children will necessarily ruin their lives, or that children who are beaten can't grow up to be functional adults. But two things are true, to the best of my knowledge: - Beating does a worse job of correcting behavioral problems than more humane methods - Beating contributes negatively to how your children feel, in general Again, this doesn't mean that beating makes you sick, or that it never corrects a specific behavior. Only that it's not a good idea, and, however mildly on a case-by-case basis, it probably means you're mistreating your kids. I wouldn't suggest it to anyone regardless of whether or not you consider violently threatening to kill yourself and your parents, to the point that they are afraid for their lives, to be evidence of mental health issues.
    - koide 14y ago
      But, how to act after people have tried everything they could think of to no avail? Is medication a better solution than some spanking (especially when it's unclear a mental problem exists)? I wouldn't be so sure about that.
- ampersandy 14y ago
  Beating your children isn't to manipulate them into becoming little slaves, it's to punish them for going against society's expected behaviour (which one might argue is its own form of slavery). Can you back up your claim that beatings produce poor outcomes for children in "highly educated societies?" Or that 'less educated societies" are inferior because they don't have qualms about spanking their kids when they misbehave?

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

ScottBurson 14y ago

I had the same thought at first, but reading the whole anecdote made me wonder. It's clear that the mother didn't do what she did just to indulge her own anger. She did, in fact, have her son's interests at heart. It was a last resort to get through to him. When you talk about submission as a goal, I think you have to ask, submission to what? If the goal is to get the child to submit to the parent's ego, as it so often is, then I agree with you. But parents have to set limits, and children have to submit to them.

PeterisP 14y ago

Well, it depends on where you draw the line - I mean, in our society we have agreed that we will force everybody to submit to certain rules, no matter what they want or what it takes to make them submit. As an example, if someone (for whatever reason) wants to kill his neighbour and take his goods/wife/house/whatever, then we'll force him not to do it, up to and including lethal force by lots of armed uniformed men. Continuing with the example, if a "kid" realistically threatens to perform criminal acts - such as shooting someone, robbing someone, raping someone - then submission is not optional, it's mandatory and it SHOULD be an absolute goal. The only question is how to make that submission happen in a humane manner - if the expected result is violence and a long prison term or death, then many means of forcing submission, such as threatening physical punishment or forced medication may seem quite reasonable.

dpatru 14y ago

Why is submission a terrible goal in raising children? Isn't submission to authority absolutely required to achieve success and stay out of jail? And once a person is an adult, physical abuse (police beatings, confinement with criminals, disgusting (http://www.npr.org/programs/wesat/features/2002/apr/loaf/) http://www.npr.org/programs/wesat/features/2002/apr/loaf/)) is the normal way rebellion is treated. And it seems to work. Most people avoid harming their neighbors and pay their taxes.