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> “Then I’m going to kill myself,” he said. I remember doing that. > He’s been on a slew of antipsychotic and mood altering pharmaceuticals, a Russian novel of

> “Then I’m going to kill myself,” he said. I remember doing that. > He’s been on a slew of antipsychotic and mood altering pharmaceuticals, a Russian novel of behavioral plans. Nothing seems to work. I remember that. > A few weeks ago, Michael..threatened to kill me I did that too. I wonder if a nice beating would have done you any good. I have one anecdotal story. My older brother was uncontrollable at the age of 9. He threw a rock at my even older brother straight at his head. Nobody could tell him what to do. Once he run away from home on a bus heading to a big city. Had he not been spotted by some friends of the family we may never had seen him again. When they returned him my grandfather advised my mom, who has a strong temper, not to scold him. So she did not. From there after he became even more uncontrollable. And now he would threaten my mother that he would run away if he didn't get his way. Seeing the truth in his eyes my mom realized that one of this days he was going to run away and this time it might be for good. So this is what my mother decided to do as a last resort: She tied him up from the feet to a branch of a tree. Basically he was hanging upside down. My mother told him that since he was going to run away she'd rather kill him so that at least that way she would know where he was. I believe at this moment my mom took out a belt, she might've hit him once or twice with it, and asked him if he was going to run away. My brother, as you can imagine, was terrified and crying and telling my mom that he would never do it again. Outcome: The problem was fixed. He became more subdued and never threatened to run away. Now my brother is a grown man, in his 40's. He has a family, a house and is a productive man of society. Overall he turned out pretty good. Mind you that it wasn't like my mom would abuse her children with beatings every other day. But you could definitely expect a beating if you really misbehaved. Not once did I get a beating nor do I remember any of my sisters getting a beating. Just trying to establish that she was not an abusive mother. All of this happened south of the USA border.

kamaal 14y ago
In Urdu we have a proverb it translates to English as - "Treat your teachers beating, as a garland you could receive in the future". I agree corporal punishment is cruelty. But some minimal beating must be allowed to put things in order. My mom is a teacher, and back here in the past and to some extent now. Beating kids in school in India was the norm. She tells me many parents would come ask the teachers to not beat their kids, some would come and ask teachers to be ask strict as they can. Its all in the ideology. But my mom says, on an average my mom says a kid who has been corrected by beating has gone to do a lot well than the ones that hasn't. Haven't you heard of the proverb- "Spare the stick and spoil the child" Some times you have to get strict.
- thefreeman 14y ago
  As I have never raised children, I can't speak from experience. But I feel like the same thing occurs in nature. Occasionally the parent needs to establish dominance. I am not advocating beating your kids, but if they are hell bent on testing the limits I think you have to show them that there is definitely a line that can not be crossed.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - chernevik 14y ago
    This is exactly how I (father of two) have used corporal punishment. It's largely there simply so I have "something worse" in store if you don't take your time-out. I think I've had to use it once every three years. Kids are awesome game players, if they know there is a limit on sanctions they'll play right to that limit. But it is only a tool. You have to be consistent, and you have to be clear, and you have to be generally supportive. You can't expect of them things they can't do. All of that is probably more important than corporal punishment.
- newbie12 14y ago
  Yeah, where is Michael's dad in all of this? I would have had the living hell beaten out of me if I had ever called my mom a bitch.
  - prakashk 14y ago
    where is Michael's dad in all of this? Busy trying not to pay child support and fighting her in court for custody of the children. http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012/07/news-from-war-on-women-front.html http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012/07/news-from-war...
- jakejake 14y ago
  It's certainly not a very popular western attitude these days. Positive reinforcement and re-direction is used in place of discipline. I'm not 100% sure how I feel about it but it does seem to me that different kids react to different kinds of treatment. Hitting one kid may really be unnecessary and even harm them mentally. Other kids seems like absolutely nothing works on them except physical spanking. Maybe that is due to the way their parents are raising them? I'm not sure. I remember in school a few bullies who got their ass kicked by another student and that problem was instantly solved. So it does seem like it works sometimes. But I hate to think we're just perpetuating a violent nature .
ForrestN 14y ago
Physical abuse does not solve mental health issues. Ever. Submission is a terrible goal in raising children.
- newbie12 14y ago
  But in some cases, these are just behavior issues, not mental health issues. Indeed, prescribing pharma and telling a kid he's mentally ill might be compounding the behavioral issue.
  - ForrestN 14y ago
    I never suggested medication, or telling a child that they are mentally ill. "I wonder if a nice beating would have done you any good." This was a response to a description of severe acting out by a child. A child threatening to kill herself or her parents is not an indication of sound mental health. Hitting them will make it worse. Sufficiently dysfunctional behavior defines what it means to have a psychological problem.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- ampersandy 14y ago
  Why do you assume that submission is the goal of the beating? Or that you know the best way to raise children?
  - ForrestN 14y ago
    "Outcome: The problem was fixed. He became more subdued and never threatened to run away." What other goal would there be? The idea of corporal punishment is that child fears getting hit enough that they will stop acting on the motives they have which conflict with those of the parents. In other words, they will submit to the motives of the parents. Common sense aside, the fact that beating doesn't produce good outcomes for children is common knowledge in highly educated societies. The American Academy of Pediatrics says: "First, establish a positive, supporting and loving relationship with your child. Without this foundation, your child has no reason, other than fear, to demonstrate good behavior. [...] If you feel discipline is necessary, the AAP recommends that you do not spank or use other physical punishments. That only teaches aggressive behavior, and becomes ineffective if used often."
fatbird 14y ago
Another word for "beating" is simply "consequence". Establishing that there are negative consequences for particular behaviours is what's important (and that they're consistently applied and adhered to), and clearly the mother knows that--she punished him effectively by yanking his electronics for a day. There's nothing particular about beating a child that's more effective than other punishments. Show me a child who doesn't respond to punishment, and I'll show you a parent who is inconsistent with consequences, and gives in rather than establishing that consequences happen. That said, I'm fucking horrified by your story. If your brother is a productive man of society, then your mother got lucky. But for every productive man of society, we have a hundred fathers who beat their children senselessly because "that's how I was raised." Violence begets violence. Abuse begets abuse. Nothing about proper, strict discipline requires behaviour that would, under other circumstances, get you locked up.
- vailripper 14y ago
  What this misses is that for many mental illnesses, is that the connection between actions and consequences is broken. My brother had EXTREME issues with oppositional defiance disorder and ADHD growing up. I can guarantee you my parents made sure there were consequences, but it doesn't matter. They simply can't connect the actions they're taking in that moment to the consequences they will receive afterwards.
  - Mz 14y ago
    A lot of parents (and employers) come up with consequences that are not really logically tied to behavior. Often, they just try to "punish", which fails with a lot of kids, or even backfires. My oldest son has (among other things) a high tolerance for physical pain (and, as an adult, a red beard, when red hair is a trait known to be tied to high pain threshold). He could be quite difficult as a child, both because he didn't much care when his risky behaviors hurt and spanking was pretty pointless. But when designed right, consequences did work. Punishment did not.
- dkarl 14y ago
  I don't know about you, but there was a limit to how how bad my parents could make me feel through non-abusive consequences. There was always an emotional weighing of the impulse to misbehave versus the punishment that would follow. As with most children, the deprivation of privileges my parents could inflict on me was generally severe enough to outweigh the emotions that drove me misbehave, but when a kid's impulses are too strong, I imagine his feelings of rage and defiance can outweigh any non-abusive punishment a his parents can inflict. These days such a kid is destined for an institution, even though a few beatings might make him a functional member of society. That said, I think it's for the best that physical abuse is criminalized, because I don't think human beings can be trusted to use it judiciously. Like you pointed out, when accepted, it is used inappropriately and destructively much more often than it is used appropriately (hey, just like guns.) However, one consequence of giving up corporal punishment is that some (very small) subset of kids will be deprived of punishment that could have set them on a better course, and in the end society will resort to violence to control them, violence carried out lawfully via the justice system.

kamaal 14y ago

In Urdu we have a proverb it translates to English as - "Treat your teachers beating, as a garland you could receive in the future". I agree corporal punishment is cruelty. But some minimal beating must be allowed to put things in order. My mom is a teacher, and back here in the past and to some extent now. Beating kids in school in India was the norm. She tells me many parents would come ask the teachers to not beat their kids, some would come and ask teachers to be ask strict as they can. Its all in the ideology. But my mom says, on an average my mom says a kid who has been corrected by beating has gone to do a lot well than the ones that hasn't. Haven't you heard of the proverb- "Spare the stick and spoil the child" Some times you have to get strict.

thefreeman 14y ago
As I have never raised children, I can't speak from experience. But I feel like the same thing occurs in nature. Occasionally the parent needs to establish dominance. I am not advocating beating your kids, but if they are hell bent on testing the limits I think you have to show them that there is definitely a line that can not be crossed.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- chernevik 14y ago
  This is exactly how I (father of two) have used corporal punishment. It's largely there simply so I have "something worse" in store if you don't take your time-out. I think I've had to use it once every three years. Kids are awesome game players, if they know there is a limit on sanctions they'll play right to that limit. But it is only a tool. You have to be consistent, and you have to be clear, and you have to be generally supportive. You can't expect of them things they can't do. All of that is probably more important than corporal punishment.
newbie12 14y ago
Yeah, where is Michael's dad in all of this? I would have had the living hell beaten out of me if I had ever called my mom a bitch.
- prakashk 14y ago
  where is Michael's dad in all of this? Busy trying not to pay child support and fighting her in court for custody of the children. http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012/07/news-from-war-on-women-front.html http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012/07/news-from-war...
jakejake 14y ago
It's certainly not a very popular western attitude these days. Positive reinforcement and re-direction is used in place of discipline. I'm not 100% sure how I feel about it but it does seem to me that different kids react to different kinds of treatment. Hitting one kid may really be unnecessary and even harm them mentally. Other kids seems like absolutely nothing works on them except physical spanking. Maybe that is due to the way their parents are raising them? I'm not sure. I remember in school a few bullies who got their ass kicked by another student and that problem was instantly solved. So it does seem like it works sometimes. But I hate to think we're just perpetuating a violent nature .

ForrestN 14y ago

Physical abuse does not solve mental health issues. Ever. Submission is a terrible goal in raising children.

newbie12 14y ago
But in some cases, these are just behavior issues, not mental health issues. Indeed, prescribing pharma and telling a kid he's mentally ill might be compounding the behavioral issue.
- ForrestN 14y ago
  I never suggested medication, or telling a child that they are mentally ill. "I wonder if a nice beating would have done you any good." This was a response to a description of severe acting out by a child. A child threatening to kill herself or her parents is not an indication of sound mental health. Hitting them will make it worse. Sufficiently dysfunctional behavior defines what it means to have a psychological problem.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
ampersandy 14y ago
Why do you assume that submission is the goal of the beating? Or that you know the best way to raise children?
- ForrestN 14y ago
  "Outcome: The problem was fixed. He became more subdued and never threatened to run away." What other goal would there be? The idea of corporal punishment is that child fears getting hit enough that they will stop acting on the motives they have which conflict with those of the parents. In other words, they will submit to the motives of the parents. Common sense aside, the fact that beating doesn't produce good outcomes for children is common knowledge in highly educated societies. The American Academy of Pediatrics says: "First, establish a positive, supporting and loving relationship with your child. Without this foundation, your child has no reason, other than fear, to demonstrate good behavior. [...] If you feel discipline is necessary, the AAP recommends that you do not spank or use other physical punishments. That only teaches aggressive behavior, and becomes ineffective if used often."

fatbird 14y ago

Another word for "beating" is simply "consequence". Establishing that there are negative consequences for particular behaviours is what's important (and that they're consistently applied and adhered to), and clearly the mother knows that--she punished him effectively by yanking his electronics for a day. There's nothing particular about beating a child that's more effective than other punishments. Show me a child who doesn't respond to punishment, and I'll show you a parent who is inconsistent with consequences, and gives in rather than establishing that consequences happen. That said, I'm fucking horrified by your story. If your brother is a productive man of society, then your mother got lucky. But for every productive man of society, we have a hundred fathers who beat their children senselessly because "that's how I was raised." Violence begets violence. Abuse begets abuse. Nothing about proper, strict discipline requires behaviour that would, under other circumstances, get you locked up.

vailripper 14y ago
What this misses is that for many mental illnesses, is that the connection between actions and consequences is broken. My brother had EXTREME issues with oppositional defiance disorder and ADHD growing up. I can guarantee you my parents made sure there were consequences, but it doesn't matter. They simply can't connect the actions they're taking in that moment to the consequences they will receive afterwards.
- Mz 14y ago
  A lot of parents (and employers) come up with consequences that are not really logically tied to behavior. Often, they just try to "punish", which fails with a lot of kids, or even backfires. My oldest son has (among other things) a high tolerance for physical pain (and, as an adult, a red beard, when red hair is a trait known to be tied to high pain threshold). He could be quite difficult as a child, both because he didn't much care when his risky behaviors hurt and spanking was pretty pointless. But when designed right, consequences did work. Punishment did not.
dkarl 14y ago
I don't know about you, but there was a limit to how how bad my parents could make me feel through non-abusive consequences. There was always an emotional weighing of the impulse to misbehave versus the punishment that would follow. As with most children, the deprivation of privileges my parents could inflict on me was generally severe enough to outweigh the emotions that drove me misbehave, but when a kid's impulses are too strong, I imagine his feelings of rage and defiance can outweigh any non-abusive punishment a his parents can inflict. These days such a kid is destined for an institution, even though a few beatings might make him a functional member of society. That said, I think it's for the best that physical abuse is criminalized, because I don't think human beings can be trusted to use it judiciously. Like you pointed out, when accepted, it is used inappropriately and destructively much more often than it is used appropriately (hey, just like guns.) However, one consequence of giving up corporal punishment is that some (very small) subset of kids will be deprived of punishment that could have set them on a better course, and in the end society will resort to violence to control them, violence carried out lawfully via the justice system.