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I dunno if it's so wild, but maybe I'm zooming out way too much. The example that came to my mind was "mathematics", something that doesn't "exists" but we "see
by embedding-shape 2mo ago
I dunno if it's so wild, but maybe I'm zooming out way too much. The example that came to my mind was "mathematics", something that doesn't "exists" but we "see" it everywhere and humanity got massively improved thanks to it. Electricity would be another example :) I guess how wild the claim is depends on how charitable you read it.
- FeepingCreature 2mo agoRight, and I think any serious civilizational benefit of drugs in the sub-hallucinatory regime is at least unproven, and benefit in the hallucinatory regime doesn't exist. That's sorta what I mean: "where big, false; where true, not big."
- embedding-shape 2mo ago> sub-hallucinatory regime is at least unproven, and benefit in the hallucinatory regime doesn't exist It's a interesting train of thought if nothing else. How would we "prove" a thing like "humanity benefits from being able to create, share and read books?" for example? Or that we can organize in grassroot movements? It's also really hard to qualify directly, as the impact is so indirect. Same with psychedelics, a lot of scientists, researchers, creatives or even business-people attribute psychedelic usage to some of their success in their fields, but how can we really know if it was because of that or not?
- gyomu 2mo ago> any serious civilizational benefit of drugs in the sub-hallucinatory regime is at least unproven If you do want to get into the "where big": Shamanic/ritual/religious/social practices that wholly involve hallucinatory experiences (both with and without the aid of hallucinogenic substances) are well attested and documented throughout human development. So the existence is there; if you want to argue that actually it was a Bad Thing for human collectives, from Siberia to the Amazon, from 50k years ago to the present day, to engage in these practices and that they'd have been much better off Not Doing It, I guess the burden of that proof is on you?
- FeepingCreature 2mo agoI don't think it was a Bad Thing; I'm not at all convinced it was a Good Thing. A Thing not being actively deleterious is enough to reach fixation.
- psd1 2mo agoI guess you'd agree with Bertrand Russell that "it's never an advantage to believe something that isn't true". It is one of my favourite quotes. However, i think it only holds amongst intellects of his calibre. I've come to the position that false beliefs aren't necessarily harmful, in the context of proles who already believe a lot of wrong things. I mean, people claim therapeutic benefits to psychedelics, and there is some evidence.
- imtringued 2mo agoPeople don't see math or electricity with their eyes and it is simultaneously hard to argue that their physical counterpart doesn't exist. Your examples are things you can't see but exist. Your analogy is exactly backwards.
- embedding-shape 2mo ago> People don't see math or electricity with their eyes and it is simultaneously hard to argue that their physical counterpart doesn't exist. Your examples are things you can't see but exist. How is that different from psychedelics? We can "see" their physical counterparts (and chemical reactions) in people's head and body as they trip too.
- wizzwizz4 2mo agoI have a camera. Suppose I rub course-grained sandpaper all over its lens. Now the camera sees scratches, instead of the outside world. But those scratches are real! We can see their physical counterparts if we study the camera. Clearly, the camera has been much improved.
- embedding-shape 2mo agoInteresting analogy, but what does it mean? What is your point here?
- wizzwizz4 2mo agoMathematics is to hallucinatory mushroom people as the flap of a hummingbird's wings is to the scratches on a lens.