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Isn’t the easy reply here that there is no expectation of privacy in public, unlike in one’s home? There are tens, or more likely hundreds of millions of camera

Isn’t the easy reply here that there is no expectation of privacy in public, unlike in one’s home? There are tens, or more likely hundreds of millions of cameras recording outside in the United States.

Walf 2mo ago
It's not that simple. If you were in public, going about your business, but someone followed you around perpetually, noting down everything you did, you should feel stalked and harassed. That is exactly what these machines are doing. Being in public means that you're not hiding any one part of your behaviour, but nor are you telling everyone where you've been and where you're going, etc.
- aqme28 2mo ago
  In some places, like Germany, that reasonable expectation of privacy standard extends into public. You’re not allowed to just film strangers that have nothing to do with you. In some ways, I feel like this is a better system for our future.
  - veec_cas_tant 2mo ago
    Regardless of their laws, Germany has plenty of CCTV style cameras outdoors just like NYC and other major cities worldwide.
    - wfvr 2mo ago
      CCTV cameras that are recording on a rolling tape that only keeps a few days of footage that is looked at by no one unless something happens can't be compared to internet connected systems that centralize all the camera feeds and uses AI to track vehicles and people.
      - veec_cas_tant 2mo ago
        > CCTV… is looked at by no one unless something happens Exactly as these new more efficient systems should be used. > … uses AI to track vehicles and people Why would wasting a team of people’s time manually reviewing hours of footage be preferable to a computer doing it? If an Amber Alert goes out, why would we not want to use all technology possible to locate the suspect vehicle? The argument seems to have switched to cameras are fine, just not if they are efficient. You can set up all kinds of horror scenarios with CCTV cameras, AirTags, cell phones, gps trackers, etc. There is, without a doubt, far less excuse for AirTags to exist than cameras in public spaces when comparing benefits to potential harm.
- veec_cas_tant 2mo ago
  Why should I feel stalked and harassed by the cameras though? I didn’t feel bothered at all by cameras in NYC. I didn’t feel bothered in Singapore. I drove about 12 hours over the last couple of days and didn’t feel bothered by the numerous cameras along the interstate. I would certainly feel different if followed by an actual human for sure, but cameras give me no reaction honestly. Is it the AI? If so, why does it matter if it’s AI vs paying a team to manually track your movements on these cameras? Seems hugely inefficient.
  - Walf 2mo ago
    Perhaps you'll feel differently if you, or someone you care about, happen to be one of the lucky future misidentifications.
    - veec_cas_tant 2mo ago
      Certainly would be upset, just like if I were misidentified by a human reading the plate number? Of course, I don’t see how it’s relevant though. I would expect at least some human review at some level, for sure! On the other hand, I have experienced a violent mugging on my street where neither my camera, nor any of my neighbors cameras, worked well enough in low light to identify the plates at all. Car pulled up, passenger jumped out and attacked two older ladies. There are plenty of cases just like this, where video evidence is lacking and would make all of the difference, that I personally feel vastly outweigh potential plate reading issues.
      - Walf 2mo ago
        I think that's conflation. Having high visibility of an area so that cameras can be consulted for evidence can be, as you attest, a good thing. Being tracked over an indeterminate length of time, profiled, and maybe one day punished for thoughtcrime, is a very different beast. And if you think thoughtcrime is far-fetched or paranoid, you aren't paying attention. Governments around the world are moving to crush dissent by limiting gatherings for protest, labelling/charging people as terrorists without having committed any terrorist acts, etc. What makes you think anyone will ever be able to organise against oppression, even if the cause is just, when one is treated as guilty without committing any crime?
skeeter2020 2mo ago
it's not about privacy in the moment, courts have already said flock is equivalent to warrantless tracking; it's more about privacy in all time-based aspects of your life: where you go, when you go there and the multitude of second order details you can easily infer from this.
- veec_cas_tant 2mo ago
  There are all kinds of law enforcement powers that do not require a warrant. Video footage is heavily volunteered as it is - they just go to your door and ask for you to send them a copy. I’m guessing the compliance rate is incredibly high, but that’s just a guess. We have cities with tens to hundreds of thousands of cameras already, not Flock but why does it matter? They can track you, but it’s fine because we need to pay $1000 per hour for a team of people to watch hours of CCTV instead of having the computer do it?
qmr 2mo ago
The C in CCTV stands for "closed" mate. Apples to orangutans.

Walf 2mo ago

It's not that simple. If you were in public, going about your business, but someone followed you around perpetually, noting down everything you did, you should feel stalked and harassed. That is exactly what these machines are doing. Being in public means that you're not hiding any one part of your behaviour, but nor are you telling everyone where you've been and where you're going, etc.

aqme28 2mo ago
In some places, like Germany, that reasonable expectation of privacy standard extends into public. You’re not allowed to just film strangers that have nothing to do with you. In some ways, I feel like this is a better system for our future.
- veec_cas_tant 2mo ago
  Regardless of their laws, Germany has plenty of CCTV style cameras outdoors just like NYC and other major cities worldwide.
  - wfvr 2mo ago
    CCTV cameras that are recording on a rolling tape that only keeps a few days of footage that is looked at by no one unless something happens can't be compared to internet connected systems that centralize all the camera feeds and uses AI to track vehicles and people.
    - veec_cas_tant 2mo ago
      > CCTV… is looked at by no one unless something happens Exactly as these new more efficient systems should be used. > … uses AI to track vehicles and people Why would wasting a team of people’s time manually reviewing hours of footage be preferable to a computer doing it? If an Amber Alert goes out, why would we not want to use all technology possible to locate the suspect vehicle? The argument seems to have switched to cameras are fine, just not if they are efficient. You can set up all kinds of horror scenarios with CCTV cameras, AirTags, cell phones, gps trackers, etc. There is, without a doubt, far less excuse for AirTags to exist than cameras in public spaces when comparing benefits to potential harm.
veec_cas_tant 2mo ago
Why should I feel stalked and harassed by the cameras though? I didn’t feel bothered at all by cameras in NYC. I didn’t feel bothered in Singapore. I drove about 12 hours over the last couple of days and didn’t feel bothered by the numerous cameras along the interstate. I would certainly feel different if followed by an actual human for sure, but cameras give me no reaction honestly. Is it the AI? If so, why does it matter if it’s AI vs paying a team to manually track your movements on these cameras? Seems hugely inefficient.
- Walf 2mo ago
  Perhaps you'll feel differently if you, or someone you care about, happen to be one of the lucky future misidentifications.
  - veec_cas_tant 2mo ago
    Certainly would be upset, just like if I were misidentified by a human reading the plate number? Of course, I don’t see how it’s relevant though. I would expect at least some human review at some level, for sure! On the other hand, I have experienced a violent mugging on my street where neither my camera, nor any of my neighbors cameras, worked well enough in low light to identify the plates at all. Car pulled up, passenger jumped out and attacked two older ladies. There are plenty of cases just like this, where video evidence is lacking and would make all of the difference, that I personally feel vastly outweigh potential plate reading issues.
    - Walf 2mo ago
      I think that's conflation. Having high visibility of an area so that cameras can be consulted for evidence can be, as you attest, a good thing. Being tracked over an indeterminate length of time, profiled, and maybe one day punished for thoughtcrime, is a very different beast. And if you think thoughtcrime is far-fetched or paranoid, you aren't paying attention. Governments around the world are moving to crush dissent by limiting gatherings for protest, labelling/charging people as terrorists without having committed any terrorist acts, etc. What makes you think anyone will ever be able to organise against oppression, even if the cause is just, when one is treated as guilty without committing any crime?

skeeter2020 2mo ago

it's not about privacy in the moment, courts have already said flock is equivalent to warrantless tracking; it's more about privacy in all time-based aspects of your life: where you go, when you go there and the multitude of second order details you can easily infer from this.

veec_cas_tant 2mo ago
There are all kinds of law enforcement powers that do not require a warrant. Video footage is heavily volunteered as it is - they just go to your door and ask for you to send them a copy. I’m guessing the compliance rate is incredibly high, but that’s just a guess. We have cities with tens to hundreds of thousands of cameras already, not Flock but why does it matter? They can track you, but it’s fine because we need to pay $1000 per hour for a team of people to watch hours of CCTV instead of having the computer do it?

qmr 2mo ago

The C in CCTV stands for "closed" mate. Apples to orangutans.