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> stop using morally charged terms made up by future monopolists Lets not gloss over this claim. Being: “Stealing is a morally charged term made up by future m

> stop using morally charged terms made up by future monopolists Lets not gloss over this claim. Being: “Stealing is a morally charged term made up by future monopolists.” I strongly disagree. Stealing is not a made up term and property rights are foundational for any society. Your take is at least sensationalist if not malicious.

theyliesoeasily 2mo ago
They definitely stole the data to make the models, but they do not say that they stole the data to make the models, but they do say that others using their outputs for unauthorized purposes is stealing. Do you see the point?
- super256 2mo ago
  Crawling the internet and dumping it to disk is not "stealing".
  - theyliesoeasily 2mo ago
    Then distilling models and deobfuscating reasoning traces isn't. Mass downloading copyrighted works is. Which they did. Aaron got threatened with 20 years, they got pentagon contracts.
  - michaelmrose 2mo ago
    It's not stealing but arguing that it's not infringement because its on the internet is pretty obviously nonsense.
  - UpsideDownRide 2mo ago
    Is everything licensed in the same way? Are there any copyrighted works available to be had through crawling?
  - modriano 2mo ago
    If they were only copying, for example, New York Times articles and many publishers to a disk, I don't think NYT and the publishers would have sued OpenAI. But OpenAI isn't just copying things to disk. NYT reported ChatGPT (before Dec 2023, [0]) was returning near verbatim sections of NYT articles. Is this stealing? Is it depriving NYT or publishers/writers from money via lost sales/subs? I don't know, but it certainly could be. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/27/business/media/new-york-times-open-ai-microsoft-lawsuit.html?smid=nytcore-android-share https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/27/business/media/new-york-t...
- nonethewiser 2mo ago
  You miss the point. Do you think “stealing” is a made up term? That is what he said. He didnt say “distilling models”. Dont you agree thats either sensationalist hyperbole or a genuinely crazy idea?
- cindyllm 2mo ago
  [dead]
__MatrixMan__ 2mo ago
There's nothing foundational about the idea that data can be owned. It conflates these things: - This is about me - I created this - Neither of the above, but according to some story I get to control who sees it Maybe some of those ideas are worth building into our society, but let's not pretend that The Code of Hammurabi gave a damn about intellectual property. IP was invented by the church so they could censor editions of the bible they didn't like and has been used to justify similar kinds of censorship ever since. The foundational thing about property is that when it gets stolen, somebody else has it, and you don't. We can hold the AI companies responsible for their actions without contributing to notions about property that encourage censorship.
- nonethewiser 2mo ago
  Data? Stealing pertains to more than just data. I think you agree with me that stealing isnt a made up term. Please reread what he said. He didnt say “distilling” was morally charged made up term by future monopolists. He said “stealing.” Thats insane.
  - __MatrixMan__ 2mo ago
    Yeah, that's what we're talking about, data. You can't steal data, because you can't own data. People who try to upgrade data related crimes to "theft" are participating (knowingly or otherwise) in propaganda, and many of us wish they would stop. You're fixating on a few clumsily placed words and coming away with a meaning which that poster did not intend. Consider absorbing the whole context before going on the offensive. The link they shared makes it pretty clear what they were trying to say even if they fumbled the words a little.
drdaeman 2mo ago
No, and we collectively had this decades ago already. “Stealing” instead of “infringement” is originally MAFIAA language intentionally (ab)used to encourage emotional reaction despite original owner not losing their copy. If you broke into a data center, pulled a hard drive and drive off with it - that’s stealing. If you accessed a copy of some information - that’s infringement, unauthorized access, or some other violation. But that’s not “stealing”, which fundamentally requires a loss or otherwise depriving original owner of the property that was stolen.
- nonethewiser 2mo ago
  One problem. He said stealing in general is a made up term. Do you think stealing is real?
  - matheusmoreira 2mo ago
    "Stealing" of non-rivalrous goods? I don't "think" it's not real. I know.
    - nonethewiser 2mo ago
      Reread what he called a morally charged, made up term by future monopolists. Stealing. Not distilling, not stealing “non rivalrous goods.” Just stealing. Do you agree with what he actually said?
      - matheusmoreira 2mo ago
        Yes, "tokens, trained on the sum of human knowledge", are the most absolutely, unambiguously clear example of a non-rivalrous good I've ever seen. The current copyright status quo has them placed in the public domain. There is literally nothing wrong with "stealing" those tokens. They have exactly zero legal protection. "Stealing" those AI output tokens is so fundamentally impossible that it wouldn't be "stealing" in this case even if you subscribe to the copyright monopolist propaganda that copyright infringement is "stealing", and I most certainly do not. Hilariously, that means we don't even fall prey to things like DMCA anticircumvention laws. If they encrypt the reasoning traces and we break the encryption somehow, we've done nothing wrong since the data wasn't copyrighted in the first place!
bijowo1676 2mo ago
How much did anthropic pay to book publishers, and everybody else whose content they stole, for stealing their content ???
- fragmede 2mo ago
  $1.3 billion, iirc.
articulatepang 2mo ago
I’m pretty sure the person you’re replying to means stealing in the context of information, IP, copyright, etc. This thread and this entire topic isn’t about stealing physical goods or money. We can all agree that if I break into your house and take your TV then that’s the ancient, obvious crime of stealing. Grice’s maxims and common sense indicate that we’re talking about the word “stealing” as applied to infringement or unauthorized copying.
dnautics 2mo ago
> property rights are foundational for any society arguable, and even more tenuous for intellectual "property", which was a relatively recent invention. plenty of interesting arguments over this way back to even the 19th century.

theyliesoeasily 2mo ago

They definitely stole the data to make the models, but they do not say that they stole the data to make the models, but they do say that others using their outputs for unauthorized purposes is stealing. Do you see the point?

super256 2mo ago
Crawling the internet and dumping it to disk is not "stealing".
- theyliesoeasily 2mo ago
  Then distilling models and deobfuscating reasoning traces isn't. Mass downloading copyrighted works is. Which they did. Aaron got threatened with 20 years, they got pentagon contracts.
- michaelmrose 2mo ago
  It's not stealing but arguing that it's not infringement because its on the internet is pretty obviously nonsense.
- UpsideDownRide 2mo ago
  Is everything licensed in the same way? Are there any copyrighted works available to be had through crawling?
- modriano 2mo ago
  If they were only copying, for example, New York Times articles and many publishers to a disk, I don't think NYT and the publishers would have sued OpenAI. But OpenAI isn't just copying things to disk. NYT reported ChatGPT (before Dec 2023, [0]) was returning near verbatim sections of NYT articles. Is this stealing? Is it depriving NYT or publishers/writers from money via lost sales/subs? I don't know, but it certainly could be. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/27/business/media/new-york-times-open-ai-microsoft-lawsuit.html?smid=nytcore-android-share https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/27/business/media/new-york-t...
nonethewiser 2mo ago
You miss the point. Do you think “stealing” is a made up term? That is what he said. He didnt say “distilling models”. Dont you agree thats either sensationalist hyperbole or a genuinely crazy idea?
cindyllm 2mo ago
[dead]

__MatrixMan__ 2mo ago

There's nothing foundational about the idea that data can be owned. It conflates these things: - This is about me - I created this - Neither of the above, but according to some story I get to control who sees it Maybe some of those ideas are worth building into our society, but let's not pretend that The Code of Hammurabi gave a damn about intellectual property. IP was invented by the church so they could censor editions of the bible they didn't like and has been used to justify similar kinds of censorship ever since. The foundational thing about property is that when it gets stolen, somebody else has it, and you don't. We can hold the AI companies responsible for their actions without contributing to notions about property that encourage censorship.

nonethewiser 2mo ago
Data? Stealing pertains to more than just data. I think you agree with me that stealing isnt a made up term. Please reread what he said. He didnt say “distilling” was morally charged made up term by future monopolists. He said “stealing.” Thats insane.
- __MatrixMan__ 2mo ago
  Yeah, that's what we're talking about, data. You can't steal data, because you can't own data. People who try to upgrade data related crimes to "theft" are participating (knowingly or otherwise) in propaganda, and many of us wish they would stop. You're fixating on a few clumsily placed words and coming away with a meaning which that poster did not intend. Consider absorbing the whole context before going on the offensive. The link they shared makes it pretty clear what they were trying to say even if they fumbled the words a little.

drdaeman 2mo ago

No, and we collectively had this decades ago already. “Stealing” instead of “infringement” is originally MAFIAA language intentionally (ab)used to encourage emotional reaction despite original owner not losing their copy. If you broke into a data center, pulled a hard drive and drive off with it - that’s stealing. If you accessed a copy of some information - that’s infringement, unauthorized access, or some other violation. But that’s not “stealing”, which fundamentally requires a loss or otherwise depriving original owner of the property that was stolen.

nonethewiser 2mo ago
One problem. He said stealing in general is a made up term. Do you think stealing is real?
- matheusmoreira 2mo ago
  "Stealing" of non-rivalrous goods? I don't "think" it's not real. I know.
  - nonethewiser 2mo ago
    Reread what he called a morally charged, made up term by future monopolists. Stealing. Not distilling, not stealing “non rivalrous goods.” Just stealing. Do you agree with what he actually said?
    - matheusmoreira 2mo ago
      Yes, "tokens, trained on the sum of human knowledge", are the most absolutely, unambiguously clear example of a non-rivalrous good I've ever seen. The current copyright status quo has them placed in the public domain. There is literally nothing wrong with "stealing" those tokens. They have exactly zero legal protection. "Stealing" those AI output tokens is so fundamentally impossible that it wouldn't be "stealing" in this case even if you subscribe to the copyright monopolist propaganda that copyright infringement is "stealing", and I most certainly do not. Hilariously, that means we don't even fall prey to things like DMCA anticircumvention laws. If they encrypt the reasoning traces and we break the encryption somehow, we've done nothing wrong since the data wasn't copyrighted in the first place!

bijowo1676 2mo ago

How much did anthropic pay to book publishers, and everybody else whose content they stole, for stealing their content ???

fragmede 2mo ago
$1.3 billion, iirc.

articulatepang 2mo ago

I’m pretty sure the person you’re replying to means stealing in the context of information, IP, copyright, etc. This thread and this entire topic isn’t about stealing physical goods or money. We can all agree that if I break into your house and take your TV then that’s the ancient, obvious crime of stealing. Grice’s maxims and common sense indicate that we’re talking about the word “stealing” as applied to infringement or unauthorized copying.

dnautics 2mo ago

> property rights are foundational for any society arguable, and even more tenuous for intellectual "property", which was a relatively recent invention. plenty of interesting arguments over this way back to even the 19th century.