8 ms·

Stephen Hawking pushes for posthumous pardon for Alan Turing

83 points by robinh 14y ago

ziffusion 14y ago
A pardon implies that there was, in fact, some kind of a crime. What we should be pushing for is a redaction, and an acknowledgement that the prosecutors were ignorant morons who harassed and extinguished a great mind because they didn't know any better.
- elliott99 14y ago
  "However, it is long-standing government policy that pardons under the Royal Prerogative of Mercy should be reserved for cases where it can be established that the convicted person was innocent of the relevant offence, and not to undo the effects of legislation which we now recognise as wrong." In this case, I guess pardon is not appropriate. I think the way we think of pardons at least in the US, is your first sentence, in which case Turing should definitely be pardoned.
- rohamg 14y ago
  Actually, no. In the UK pardons are usually given when there is a presumption of innocence. In Turing's case, he was in fact guilty of a crime according to the laws at the time.
  - teamonkey 14y ago
    In the UK a pardon doesn't necessarily presume innocence. It simply means that you can't be punished for your crime. Although rare these days there were times when a pardon could be won or purchased in exchange for services rendered. It didn't mean that you were innocent of your crime.
- pbhjpbhj 14y ago
  That it was a crime is a matter of historical record. The prosecutors, judge J. Fraser Harrison for example, appear to have been far from moronic. An unambiguous cause for Turing's suicide doesn't appear to be known. Your allegations of ignorance though seem valid.
charonn0 14y ago
I'm a homosexual, and Mr. Turing is one of my heroes. The conviction should stand, not as a shame for Mr. Turing but for those who convicted him.
- avar 14y ago
  I think the conviction should stand because it's pretty ridiculous to go around pardoning dead people convicted under laws we now view as having been wrong. Where should it end? Should the UK start hunting down and posthumously pardoning some of the convicts it shipped off to other continents for petty crimes during the Victorian era? Unless you go and systematically posthumously pardon people how are you serving justice by only pardoning historical persons famous enough to have enough of a modern following to petition the modern-era government on their behalf?
  - jeltz 14y ago
    I agree, but there has in the UK been at least one posthumous mass pardon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_Act_2006#Pardon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_Act_2006#Pardon
    - pbhjpbhj 14y ago
      Whilst these were, by that link, not really "pardons" in the legal sense there is another important difference. These represent a change in the material facts considered in the convictions (hence presumably if anything happened the convictions should really have been overturned; doing it the way they did probably avoided getting sued though?) - these people were shot for cowardice/desertion but it is now understood that they were suffering a mental health condition, ie shell-shock. So as far as precedent goes this doesn't appear relevant [to me] as in Turing's case it is a revisionist attitude to the moral underpinning of the law at the time that has changed things and not the material facts.
- sumfin 14y ago
  Agreed. A verbal bandage on an old hurt? Rather, work for civil rights now and in the future. Even apologizing for Turing's persecution seems silly, unless you are one those who 'outed' him or prosecuted him. You can't erase the past so easily, and why would you want to?
mhurron 14y ago
I believe this issue needs to be dropped. Turing is beginning to be remembered only as a gay man wrongfully punished. His actual accomplishments are taking a back seat, what he did is becoming less important than who he did.
- pbhjpbhj 14y ago
  >what he did is becoming less important than who he did. // No one seems to mention "who he did" either from what I can gather - a teenager (19) he picked up at the cinema in the incident he was arrested for. He was 40. It's kinda weird to me as many in the UK wouldn't be particularly accepting of that sort of age gap now, particularly not for casual sexual liaisons. The age of consent for homosexual male sex was lowered to 18 in 1994 - that means that up until 1994 Turing's actions were illegal in the UK. If you add in that he was privy to official secrets and would be a potential target to foreign powers then his apparent promiscuity would also be an issue of national security - I think a person in his position now would be vilified by the press and that it would be right for them to be disciplined (at least) for conduct unbecoming of an intelligence service office holder. >remembered only as a gay man // Whilst he's being made a poster boy for casual homosexual sex it seems people too forget he was engaged to a work colleague. Perhaps he was bisexual, it's got to be a strong possibility. Are there any quotations from him about homosexual sex, or his lifestyle choice? Did he revel in his liaison(s) or regret them? I've not seen anything from these points apart from material that appears to have a bias towards promoting him as a model of gay pride. If he was given a pardon this would set a very difficult precedent. Consider if cannabis is made legal in a couple of years how many pardons, and subsequent lawsuits, would that single legal change produce. Then think of all the other laws - even minor things like regrading of a speed limit on a road, the law has changed making a former activity that was prosecuted no longer illegal. That all said I agree in general this story appears not to really be an argument about Turing. Or if it is then it's attempting to leverage a strange moral attitude that those of note should not be subject to the rule of law.
  - andrewvc 14y ago
    If you add in that he was privy to official secrets and would be a potential target to foreign powers then his apparent promiscuity would also be an issue of national security - I think a person in his position now would be vilified by the press and that it would be right for them to be disciplined (at least) for conduct unbecoming of an intelligence service office holder. This is puritanical BS. He was a single man dating adults. That's his own business, the press plays it up because society as a whole loves gawking at this sort of behavior, but it's no risk to anyone.
jeltz 14y ago
What would a pardon do that the formal apology not already has done? Posthumous pardons rarely have any point.
- elliott99 14y ago
  Obviously so the ghost of Alan Turning doesn't haunt us eternally...haven't you watched movies before
  - pavel_lishin 14y ago
    > so the ghost of Alan Turning doesn't haunt us eternally... If giving him the pardon gets rid of software bugs, it's a small price to pay for a great gain.
- fab13n 14y ago
  It would be about amending an appalling disgrace; not upon Turing, but upon Great Britain.
  - Thrall 14y ago
    It would be about pretending to amend an appalling disgrace. The past happened and cannot be changed.
pavel_lishin 14y ago
After we posthumously pardon Alan Turing, we should posthumously give Ada Lovelace the right to vote.
- sk5t 14y ago
  Only provided that both are next posthumously converted to Mormonism.
thankfully 14y ago
Nobody is "gay". (For the record: "gay" means joyful, basically.) But nobody is this by Nature. We all are sometimes happy, sometimes tired. This is the normal way of life. We all are persons (by definition), and sexual behaviour can change in someone's life (we have hundreds of thousands of examples of that). So, what does "gay" even mean? An excuse to allow a lobby to abuse the rest of us?
- stephengillie 14y ago
  You aren't joyful from time to time? I am, especially when working on my Arduino robot. In current usage, "gay" refers to homosexuals, a group of humans which other groups of humans enjoy hating and fearing. A group which is still fighting for the basic humans rights the rest of us enjoy, such as the right to marry their lifetime partners.
  - jacquesm 14y ago
    don't feed the trolls.

83 points by robinh 14y ago

A pardon implies that there was, in fact, some kind of a crime. What we should be pushing for is a redaction, and an acknowledgement that the prosecutors were ignorant morons who harassed and extinguished a great mind because they didn't know any better.

elliott99 14y ago
"However, it is long-standing government policy that pardons under the Royal Prerogative of Mercy should be reserved for cases where it can be established that the convicted person was innocent of the relevant offence, and not to undo the effects of legislation which we now recognise as wrong." In this case, I guess pardon is not appropriate. I think the way we think of pardons at least in the US, is your first sentence, in which case Turing should definitely be pardoned.
rohamg 14y ago
Actually, no. In the UK pardons are usually given when there is a presumption of innocence. In Turing's case, he was in fact guilty of a crime according to the laws at the time.
- teamonkey 14y ago
  In the UK a pardon doesn't necessarily presume innocence. It simply means that you can't be punished for your crime. Although rare these days there were times when a pardon could be won or purchased in exchange for services rendered. It didn't mean that you were innocent of your crime.
pbhjpbhj 14y ago
That it was a crime is a matter of historical record. The prosecutors, judge J. Fraser Harrison for example, appear to have been far from moronic. An unambiguous cause for Turing's suicide doesn't appear to be known. Your allegations of ignorance though seem valid.

charonn0 14y ago

I'm a homosexual, and Mr. Turing is one of my heroes. The conviction should stand, not as a shame for Mr. Turing but for those who convicted him.

avar 14y ago
I think the conviction should stand because it's pretty ridiculous to go around pardoning dead people convicted under laws we now view as having been wrong. Where should it end? Should the UK start hunting down and posthumously pardoning some of the convicts it shipped off to other continents for petty crimes during the Victorian era? Unless you go and systematically posthumously pardon people how are you serving justice by only pardoning historical persons famous enough to have enough of a modern following to petition the modern-era government on their behalf?
- jeltz 14y ago
  I agree, but there has in the UK been at least one posthumous mass pardon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_Act_2006#Pardon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_Act_2006#Pardon
  - pbhjpbhj 14y ago
    Whilst these were, by that link, not really "pardons" in the legal sense there is another important difference. These represent a change in the material facts considered in the convictions (hence presumably if anything happened the convictions should really have been overturned; doing it the way they did probably avoided getting sued though?) - these people were shot for cowardice/desertion but it is now understood that they were suffering a mental health condition, ie shell-shock. So as far as precedent goes this doesn't appear relevant [to me] as in Turing's case it is a revisionist attitude to the moral underpinning of the law at the time that has changed things and not the material facts.
sumfin 14y ago
Agreed. A verbal bandage on an old hurt? Rather, work for civil rights now and in the future. Even apologizing for Turing's persecution seems silly, unless you are one those who 'outed' him or prosecuted him. You can't erase the past so easily, and why would you want to?

mhurron 14y ago

I believe this issue needs to be dropped. Turing is beginning to be remembered only as a gay man wrongfully punished. His actual accomplishments are taking a back seat, what he did is becoming less important than who he did.

pbhjpbhj 14y ago
>what he did is becoming less important than who he did. // No one seems to mention "who he did" either from what I can gather - a teenager (19) he picked up at the cinema in the incident he was arrested for. He was 40. It's kinda weird to me as many in the UK wouldn't be particularly accepting of that sort of age gap now, particularly not for casual sexual liaisons. The age of consent for homosexual male sex was lowered to 18 in 1994 - that means that up until 1994 Turing's actions were illegal in the UK. If you add in that he was privy to official secrets and would be a potential target to foreign powers then his apparent promiscuity would also be an issue of national security - I think a person in his position now would be vilified by the press and that it would be right for them to be disciplined (at least) for conduct unbecoming of an intelligence service office holder. >remembered only as a gay man // Whilst he's being made a poster boy for casual homosexual sex it seems people too forget he was engaged to a work colleague. Perhaps he was bisexual, it's got to be a strong possibility. Are there any quotations from him about homosexual sex, or his lifestyle choice? Did he revel in his liaison(s) or regret them? I've not seen anything from these points apart from material that appears to have a bias towards promoting him as a model of gay pride. If he was given a pardon this would set a very difficult precedent. Consider if cannabis is made legal in a couple of years how many pardons, and subsequent lawsuits, would that single legal change produce. Then think of all the other laws - even minor things like regrading of a speed limit on a road, the law has changed making a former activity that was prosecuted no longer illegal. That all said I agree in general this story appears not to really be an argument about Turing. Or if it is then it's attempting to leverage a strange moral attitude that those of note should not be subject to the rule of law.
- andrewvc 14y ago
  If you add in that he was privy to official secrets and would be a potential target to foreign powers then his apparent promiscuity would also be an issue of national security - I think a person in his position now would be vilified by the press and that it would be right for them to be disciplined (at least) for conduct unbecoming of an intelligence service office holder. This is puritanical BS. He was a single man dating adults. That's his own business, the press plays it up because society as a whole loves gawking at this sort of behavior, but it's no risk to anyone.

jeltz 14y ago

What would a pardon do that the formal apology not already has done? Posthumous pardons rarely have any point.

elliott99 14y ago
Obviously so the ghost of Alan Turning doesn't haunt us eternally...haven't you watched movies before
- pavel_lishin 14y ago
  > so the ghost of Alan Turning doesn't haunt us eternally... If giving him the pardon gets rid of software bugs, it's a small price to pay for a great gain.
fab13n 14y ago
It would be about amending an appalling disgrace; not upon Turing, but upon Great Britain.
- Thrall 14y ago
  It would be about pretending to amend an appalling disgrace. The past happened and cannot be changed.

pavel_lishin 14y ago

After we posthumously pardon Alan Turing, we should posthumously give Ada Lovelace the right to vote.

sk5t 14y ago
Only provided that both are next posthumously converted to Mormonism.

thankfully 14y ago

Nobody is "gay". (For the record: "gay" means joyful, basically.) But nobody is this by Nature. We all are sometimes happy, sometimes tired. This is the normal way of life. We all are persons (by definition), and sexual behaviour can change in someone's life (we have hundreds of thousands of examples of that). So, what does "gay" even mean? An excuse to allow a lobby to abuse the rest of us?

stephengillie 14y ago
You aren't joyful from time to time? I am, especially when working on my Arduino robot. In current usage, "gay" refers to homosexuals, a group of humans which other groups of humans enjoy hating and fearing. A group which is still fighting for the basic humans rights the rest of us enjoy, such as the right to marry their lifetime partners.
- jacquesm 14y ago
  don't feed the trolls.