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Yes. When my kids wonder why I don't hate AI the way they do I tell them it's because I hate Google even more. To be more precise, I hate the SEO shithole the

Yes. When my kids wonder why I don't hate AI the way they do I tell them it's because I hate Google even more. To be more precise, I hate the SEO shithole the internet has become, that Google serves up, that Google facilitated, indirectly created. (I really don't have any tears to shed if there is a death of the Corporate Internet™.)

dualvariable 2mo ago
They're probably going to figure out how to aggressively monetize and enshittify LLMs at some point. We're likely at the "golden age" of LLM-assisted web searching and summarization. Hopefully open models keep it cracked open, but expecting enshittification is always the safe bet these days.
- badestrand 2mo ago
  For the free to use LLMs, for sure. But if I pay $20 monthly, why should they enshittify it?
  - archagon 2mo ago
    Because that’s what always happens? Because their raison d’etre is to squeeze you dry?
  - 0x262d 2mo ago
    look at every paid streaming service...
    - inigyou 2mo ago
      To be fair those enshittified because of copyright owners, not because of paid streaming services.
  - Eisenstein 2mo ago
    The amount of money you pay is irrelevant if you don't leave the platform once they starting adding revenue streams that degrade your experience.
  - Gigachad 2mo ago
    $20 a month is not nearly enough. The current finances require AI companies to make far more money than that to not implode.
  - javcasas 2mo ago
    If there is an extra buck to be made, or another promotion to be handed to a middle manager, it will be enshittified to get it. That is why we are seeing paid streaming services with ads.
no-name-here 2mo ago
Is there some search engine that you think could have become popular and not ended up with SEO optimization?
- Melatonic 2mo ago
  One you pay for yourself ! Very happy with Kagi personally
  - no-name-here 2mo ago
    >> Is there some search engine that you think could have become popular and not ended up with SEO optimization? > One you pay for yourself ! SEO is the practice done by webmasters of optimizing a website to improve its visibility and ranking in search engine results. If you are paying to use your search engine, does that mean webmasters are no longer incentivized to/will not try to improve their visibility/ranking in your search results?
    - Eisenstein 2mo ago
      > SEO is the practice done by webmasters of optimizing a website to improve its visibility and ranking in search engine results. They do this because they benefit from their site being visited or the information they are providing being noticed. > If you are paying to use your search engine, does that mean webmasters are no longer incentivized to/will not try to improve their visibility/ranking in your search results? I see no reason it would have that effect. It does, however, create different incentives for the search provider to improve the signals indicating page relevance since the user is the priority instead of advertisers.
      - no-name-here 2mo ago
        Ah, the argument is that Google intentionally avoids showing you the most relevant results, or at least avoids "solving" the problem of webmasters who attempt to 'game' the system. >>>> Is there some search engine that you think could have become popular and not ended up with SEO optimization? >>> One you pay for yourself ! >> SEO is the practice done by webmasters of optimizing a website to improve its visibility and ranking in search engine results. > They do this because they benefit from their site being visited or the information they are providing being noticed. >> If you are paying to use your search engine, does that mean webmasters are no longer incentivized to/will not try to improve their visibility/ranking in your search results? > I see no reason it would have that effect. Agreed.
jononor 2mo ago
AI seems to be on the same trajectory? Search was very useful in the start also, until it became entrenched. Then search placement became a target, and they are just focusing on extracting rents. All way paying the content providers zero or near-zero. And with years of that dynamic, we end up where we are now. It was the same with "social media". The same will happen with AI. AI is a power for more enshittification - being currently less shit than Google is (mosy likely) temporary.
- zombot 2mo ago
  It's definitely temporary. Remember there are no ad blockers for LLMs.
  - quantummagic 2mo ago
    You're right, this is the best it will ever be. But there likely will be ad blockers for them -- local LLMs that filter for any brand placement, etc.
bigbuppo 2mo ago
LLMs are currently "Search in 1997". That is to say, it can only get worse from here.

dualvariable 2mo ago

They're probably going to figure out how to aggressively monetize and enshittify LLMs at some point. We're likely at the "golden age" of LLM-assisted web searching and summarization. Hopefully open models keep it cracked open, but expecting enshittification is always the safe bet these days.

badestrand 2mo ago
For the free to use LLMs, for sure. But if I pay $20 monthly, why should they enshittify it?
- archagon 2mo ago
  Because that’s what always happens? Because their raison d’etre is to squeeze you dry?
- 0x262d 2mo ago
  look at every paid streaming service...
  - inigyou 2mo ago
    To be fair those enshittified because of copyright owners, not because of paid streaming services.
- Eisenstein 2mo ago
  The amount of money you pay is irrelevant if you don't leave the platform once they starting adding revenue streams that degrade your experience.
- Gigachad 2mo ago
  $20 a month is not nearly enough. The current finances require AI companies to make far more money than that to not implode.
- javcasas 2mo ago
  If there is an extra buck to be made, or another promotion to be handed to a middle manager, it will be enshittified to get it. That is why we are seeing paid streaming services with ads.

no-name-here 2mo ago

Is there some search engine that you think could have become popular and not ended up with SEO optimization?

Melatonic 2mo ago
One you pay for yourself ! Very happy with Kagi personally
- no-name-here 2mo ago
  >> Is there some search engine that you think could have become popular and not ended up with SEO optimization? > One you pay for yourself ! SEO is the practice done by webmasters of optimizing a website to improve its visibility and ranking in search engine results. If you are paying to use your search engine, does that mean webmasters are no longer incentivized to/will not try to improve their visibility/ranking in your search results?
  - Eisenstein 2mo ago
    > SEO is the practice done by webmasters of optimizing a website to improve its visibility and ranking in search engine results. They do this because they benefit from their site being visited or the information they are providing being noticed. > If you are paying to use your search engine, does that mean webmasters are no longer incentivized to/will not try to improve their visibility/ranking in your search results? I see no reason it would have that effect. It does, however, create different incentives for the search provider to improve the signals indicating page relevance since the user is the priority instead of advertisers.
    - no-name-here 2mo ago
      Ah, the argument is that Google intentionally avoids showing you the most relevant results, or at least avoids "solving" the problem of webmasters who attempt to 'game' the system. >>>> Is there some search engine that you think could have become popular and not ended up with SEO optimization? >>> One you pay for yourself ! >> SEO is the practice done by webmasters of optimizing a website to improve its visibility and ranking in search engine results. > They do this because they benefit from their site being visited or the information they are providing being noticed. >> If you are paying to use your search engine, does that mean webmasters are no longer incentivized to/will not try to improve their visibility/ranking in your search results? > I see no reason it would have that effect. Agreed.

jononor 2mo ago

AI seems to be on the same trajectory? Search was very useful in the start also, until it became entrenched. Then search placement became a target, and they are just focusing on extracting rents. All way paying the content providers zero or near-zero. And with years of that dynamic, we end up where we are now. It was the same with "social media". The same will happen with AI. AI is a power for more enshittification - being currently less shit than Google is (mosy likely) temporary.

zombot 2mo ago
It's definitely temporary. Remember there are no ad blockers for LLMs.
- quantummagic 2mo ago
  You're right, this is the best it will ever be. But there likely will be ad blockers for them -- local LLMs that filter for any brand placement, etc.

bigbuppo 2mo ago

LLMs are currently "Search in 1997". That is to say, it can only get worse from here.