3 ms·

This (money transfer) is one thing Pix would solve trivially.

by gchamonlive 2mo ago

nonethewiser 2mo ago
Any universal system would. The problem is there isnt a universal system.
- gchamonlive 2mo ago
  That's untrue because it assumes all systems are interchangeable just because they are centralized and global, but intention matters and how you operate them creates hidden incentives that can alter how these systems evolve over time. Pix in Brazil, unlike other solutions, is entirely state-run and shouldn't suffer from investor pressure. It can still potentially suffer from service quality degradation and lack of transparency, but enshitification and anti-consumer practices are also very much present in private-owned initiatives, so it's not exclusive to this project.
  - inigyou 2mo ago
    Yeah, but it only works in Brazil. There's no political will for the US to adopt a Brazilian payment system, and plenty of political will for that to not happen. The same is true in every country. Europe has the SEPA system (often incorrectly called the IBAN system), but you can't use SEPA to transfer to a US account. When the Ukraine war broke out and Ukraine sought donations, they were asking people to donate to a Deutsche Bank account with SEPA, or a JPMorgan Chase account with ACH, or an Australian National Bank account with whatever system they use in Australia.
    - gchamonlive 2mo ago
      Hence the "would solve", but as you identified the US prefers to favor their internal ancient financial structures that aren't fit for current global needs. And it's not like it's doing so in order to prevent someone to acquire strategic leverage, because this tech would benefit everyone equally, but to maintain its stronghold over the world's financial systems (like hackerone) just to extract profit. This is very Roman of the Americans, we gotta admit.
      - inigyou 2mo ago
        Even if the US modernized its financial infrastructure, it still wouldn't share the same infrastructure as Brazil, China, Mozambique and the EU. Here's something to think about: All of a country's currency, except for physical cash, is stored inside that country. You may think an American can have a Revolut account holding Australian dollars, but Revolut just has a really big account at some Australian bank, and that bank is where the dollars really are. When you go to Europe and use your American Visa card to buy something, the system finds someone with accounts in both continents to be the counterparty. USD travels from your American bank to the exchanger's American bank, and from the exchanger's European bank to the merchant's European bank. How would you extend this system outside a single government? It's like saying all cryptocurrencies should share one blockchain - it's all well and good to say, but how will you actually make that happen?
        gchamonlive 2mo ago
        Unfortunately I think you are right, this is kinda Capitalist Realism but applied for imperialism: it's easier to imagine the end of the world than to imagine that the US (or any regional power for that matter) to cooperate with their neighbors. I think this applies however only to the US. It's possible that Europe, India, Brazil and other powers to form a infrastructure chain around US to make financial cooperation easier between international economical partners.
        inigyou 2mo ago
        It's not even about capitalism. You're asking Bitcoin, Ethereum and Monero to cooperate. What do the technical details of that cooperation actually look like?
        gchamonlive 2mo ago
        I disagree, they don't cooperate just because they operate immersed in competition. Take out competition for instance by state sponsored cooperation treaties and see the technical limitations dissolve by creating the right incentives.
gruez 2mo ago
...or UPI (India), wechat pay/alipay (China), SEPA (EU). The problem is that none of these systems are actually global.
- gchamonlive 2mo ago
  Hence "would solve" and not "solves"
  - inigyou 2mo ago
    These systems are government mandated. You get even more fractured systems without a government mandate - originally it was one per bank, and to get money from one bank to another you had to withdraw and then deposit cash. And there isn't a world government. The closest we have is cryptocurrency, but it doesn't scale.

This (money transfer) is one thing Pix would solve trivially.

nonethewiser 2mo ago

Any universal system would. The problem is there isnt a universal system.

gchamonlive 2mo ago
That's untrue because it assumes all systems are interchangeable just because they are centralized and global, but intention matters and how you operate them creates hidden incentives that can alter how these systems evolve over time. Pix in Brazil, unlike other solutions, is entirely state-run and shouldn't suffer from investor pressure. It can still potentially suffer from service quality degradation and lack of transparency, but enshitification and anti-consumer practices are also very much present in private-owned initiatives, so it's not exclusive to this project.
- inigyou 2mo ago
  Yeah, but it only works in Brazil. There's no political will for the US to adopt a Brazilian payment system, and plenty of political will for that to not happen. The same is true in every country. Europe has the SEPA system (often incorrectly called the IBAN system), but you can't use SEPA to transfer to a US account. When the Ukraine war broke out and Ukraine sought donations, they were asking people to donate to a Deutsche Bank account with SEPA, or a JPMorgan Chase account with ACH, or an Australian National Bank account with whatever system they use in Australia.
  - gchamonlive 2mo ago
    Hence the "would solve", but as you identified the US prefers to favor their internal ancient financial structures that aren't fit for current global needs. And it's not like it's doing so in order to prevent someone to acquire strategic leverage, because this tech would benefit everyone equally, but to maintain its stronghold over the world's financial systems (like hackerone) just to extract profit. This is very Roman of the Americans, we gotta admit.
    - inigyou 2mo ago
      Even if the US modernized its financial infrastructure, it still wouldn't share the same infrastructure as Brazil, China, Mozambique and the EU. Here's something to think about: All of a country's currency, except for physical cash, is stored inside that country. You may think an American can have a Revolut account holding Australian dollars, but Revolut just has a really big account at some Australian bank, and that bank is where the dollars really are. When you go to Europe and use your American Visa card to buy something, the system finds someone with accounts in both continents to be the counterparty. USD travels from your American bank to the exchanger's American bank, and from the exchanger's European bank to the merchant's European bank. How would you extend this system outside a single government? It's like saying all cryptocurrencies should share one blockchain - it's all well and good to say, but how will you actually make that happen?
      - gchamonlive 2mo ago
        Unfortunately I think you are right, this is kinda Capitalist Realism but applied for imperialism: it's easier to imagine the end of the world than to imagine that the US (or any regional power for that matter) to cooperate with their neighbors. I think this applies however only to the US. It's possible that Europe, India, Brazil and other powers to form a infrastructure chain around US to make financial cooperation easier between international economical partners.
        inigyou 2mo ago
        It's not even about capitalism. You're asking Bitcoin, Ethereum and Monero to cooperate. What do the technical details of that cooperation actually look like?
        gchamonlive 2mo ago
        I disagree, they don't cooperate just because they operate immersed in competition. Take out competition for instance by state sponsored cooperation treaties and see the technical limitations dissolve by creating the right incentives.

gruez 2mo ago

...or UPI (India), wechat pay/alipay (China), SEPA (EU). The problem is that none of these systems are actually global.

gchamonlive 2mo ago
Hence "would solve" and not "solves"
- inigyou 2mo ago
  These systems are government mandated. You get even more fractured systems without a government mandate - originally it was one per bank, and to get money from one bank to another you had to withdraw and then deposit cash. And there isn't a world government. The closest we have is cryptocurrency, but it doesn't scale.