4 ms·

US life expectancy is 79.76 years. That's 62nd in the world, lover than EU average, lower than many less wealthy countries. It's objectively not "working OK" f

by ajuc 2mo ago

US life expectancy is 79.76 years. That's 62nd in the world, lover than EU average, lower than many less wealthy countries. It's objectively not "working OK" for most Americans, especially when you consider how much you spend for subpar results. Source: https://www.worldometers.info/demographics/life-expectancy/ https://www.worldometers.info/demographics/life-expectancy/ Now you can blame it on bad lifestyle, addictions, car culture, crime rate, etc. All true, and idiotic healthcare system is indirectly influencing all of that.

nradov 2mo ago
How exactly does the healthcare system cause people to crash their cars, abuse recreational drugs, overeat, and commit violent crimes?
- ajuc 2mo ago
  Medical bankrupcy would make you homeless and cause you to abuse drugs and commit crimes at higher rate for one example. Badly controlled medical system with bad incentives caused opioid crisis. Bad incentives (government and healthcare system earning money on people getting sick instead of losing money on them) also makes it less likely for the system to focus on healthy work-life balance (paid maternity leave, paid vacations, good preventive care, education for healthy lifestyle) and instead focuses on expansive aftercare.
  - nradov 2mo ago
    What a weird comment. Most people who go through bankruptcy don't become homeless. And most people who go through medical treatment don't become bankrupt.
    - ajuc 2mo ago
      If it happens much more in US than in other countries - it contributes. There's about 500 000 medical bankrupcies in US per year. That's huge. Also - medical debt (not even bankrupcy necessarily) contributes significantly to homelessness: https://publichealthpost.org/health-equity/medical-debt-homelessness/ https://publichealthpost.org/health-equity/medical-debt-home... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32513034/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32513034/ > two-thirds [of homeless interviewed] reporting current medical debt. Almost half reported trouble paying medical bills for themselves or family members. Almost one-third believed medical debt was in part responsible for their current housing situation. More than half with medical debt incurred this debt while they were covered under insurance. People who had trouble paying medical bills experienced a more recent episode of homelessness 2 years longer than those who did not have such trouble, even after controlling for race, education, age, gender, and health status
      - nradov 2mo ago
        Your numbers are way off. Most people who file bankruptcy have some medical debt but medical debt is seldom the primary cause of bankruptcy. When people suffer a loss of income or get overextended then they tend to prioritize their housing and car bills out of necessity, and quit paying medical bills. The US healthcare financing system is a disaster and needs reform. But if you look deeper into the alarmist reports about medical bankruptcies you'll find that they're lying with statistics to push a political narrative.
        ajuc 2mo ago
        https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(09)00525-7/fulltext https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(09)00525-7/fulltex... > The article by Himmelstein et al1 in this issue of the The American Journal of Medicine documents that health care expenses were the most common cause of bankruptcy in the United States in 2007, accounting for 62% of US bankruptcies compared with 8% in 1981.2 https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6366487/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6366487/ > Table 1 displays debtors’ responses regarding the (often multiple) contributors to their bankruptcy. The majority (58.5%) “very much” or “somewhat” agreed that medical expenses contributed, and 44.3% cited illness-related work loss; 66.5% cited at least one of these two medical contributors—equivalent to about 530 000 medical bankruptcies annually.
        wat10000 2mo ago
        "Medical expenses contributed" is awfully vague. Doesn't any expense contribute to bankruptcy? I'm more interested in the ~40% who didn't have medical expenses contribute. Are they not seeing doctors at all, or are they on a program that covers all medical expenses? I find this framing to be extremely misleading. "Medical bankruptcies" suggests something like someone gets cancer and insurance doesn't cover the treatment and they end up a million bucks in debt to the hospital. But the numbers above seem to cover someone who got fired, bet all their savings on black at the roulette table, and also visited the dentist.
wat10000 2mo ago
Please don't abuse "objectively." There's no objective measure of what "working OK" even means in the first place, let alone objective information that says whether or not we meet that bar. EU life expectancy was 81.7 in 2024. Two years makes one of them OK and the other not? What do we call a place like Hungary which is quite a bit below the US here? Or maybe it's OK because they don't spend as much? I also said for most Americans. Bad life expectancy is concentrated in the poorest Americans. Which is not a good thing to say about this country, but it does mean that most Americans live longer. Again, I'm not a defender of our system. But the average American gets decent care and is not bankrupted by major illness.
- ajuc 2mo ago
  If you pay much more and get worse results that's objectively not OK. It means the system is inefficient and could be easily improved saving lives and money. > Bad life expectancy is concentrated in the poorest Americans. Which is not a good thing to say about this country, but it does mean that most Americans live longer. I've seen this defence many times, in different contexts, and it always strikes me as very strange. Why do you assume most Americans are rich? And why do you assume they are the ones that matter? Very weird. But let's take it at face value. Looking at the graph of life expectancy vs percentile of income - US seems to be below 80 years for 50th percentile: https://preview.redd.it/at-every-income-level-us-americans-live-shorter-lives-than-v0-o0bgbvq6t3ra1.jpg?auto=webp&s=382645f76c5013a9f78e4e528947321722cd564a https://preview.redd.it/at-every-income-level-us-americans-l... Which would make your point false regardless of the weirdness of it. Another interesting graph: https://ourworldindata.org/cdn-cgi/imagedelivery/qLq-8BTgXU8yG0N6HnOy8g/37516ca3-0ff6-4e48-25d7-e8e8b5be2f00/w=1350 https://ourworldindata.org/cdn-cgi/imagedelivery/qLq-8BTgXU8... I would not call it "OK". > What do we call a place like Hungary which is quite a bit below the US here? I could do the trick you did, sayign that Hungary has the same life expectancy as Illinois, and richer parts of EU has better life expectancy, therefore Hungary doesn't matter. That would be disingenious tho. It does matter, and healthcare in Hungary obviously isn't doing OK. It is more cost-effective than US tho.
  - wat10000 2mo ago

by ajuc 2mo ago

nradov 2mo ago

How exactly does the healthcare system cause people to crash their cars, abuse recreational drugs, overeat, and commit violent crimes?

ajuc 2mo ago
Medical bankrupcy would make you homeless and cause you to abuse drugs and commit crimes at higher rate for one example. Badly controlled medical system with bad incentives caused opioid crisis. Bad incentives (government and healthcare system earning money on people getting sick instead of losing money on them) also makes it less likely for the system to focus on healthy work-life balance (paid maternity leave, paid vacations, good preventive care, education for healthy lifestyle) and instead focuses on expansive aftercare.
- nradov 2mo ago
  What a weird comment. Most people who go through bankruptcy don't become homeless. And most people who go through medical treatment don't become bankrupt.
  - ajuc 2mo ago
    If it happens much more in US than in other countries - it contributes. There's about 500 000 medical bankrupcies in US per year. That's huge. Also - medical debt (not even bankrupcy necessarily) contributes significantly to homelessness: https://publichealthpost.org/health-equity/medical-debt-homelessness/ https://publichealthpost.org/health-equity/medical-debt-home... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32513034/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32513034/ > two-thirds [of homeless interviewed] reporting current medical debt. Almost half reported trouble paying medical bills for themselves or family members. Almost one-third believed medical debt was in part responsible for their current housing situation. More than half with medical debt incurred this debt while they were covered under insurance. People who had trouble paying medical bills experienced a more recent episode of homelessness 2 years longer than those who did not have such trouble, even after controlling for race, education, age, gender, and health status
    - nradov 2mo ago
      Your numbers are way off. Most people who file bankruptcy have some medical debt but medical debt is seldom the primary cause of bankruptcy. When people suffer a loss of income or get overextended then they tend to prioritize their housing and car bills out of necessity, and quit paying medical bills. The US healthcare financing system is a disaster and needs reform. But if you look deeper into the alarmist reports about medical bankruptcies you'll find that they're lying with statistics to push a political narrative.
      - ajuc 2mo ago
        https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(09)00525-7/fulltext https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(09)00525-7/fulltex... > The article by Himmelstein et al1 in this issue of the The American Journal of Medicine documents that health care expenses were the most common cause of bankruptcy in the United States in 2007, accounting for 62% of US bankruptcies compared with 8% in 1981.2 https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6366487/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6366487/ > Table 1 displays debtors’ responses regarding the (often multiple) contributors to their bankruptcy. The majority (58.5%) “very much” or “somewhat” agreed that medical expenses contributed, and 44.3% cited illness-related work loss; 66.5% cited at least one of these two medical contributors—equivalent to about 530 000 medical bankruptcies annually.
        wat10000 2mo ago
        "Medical expenses contributed" is awfully vague. Doesn't any expense contribute to bankruptcy? I'm more interested in the ~40% who didn't have medical expenses contribute. Are they not seeing doctors at all, or are they on a program that covers all medical expenses? I find this framing to be extremely misleading. "Medical bankruptcies" suggests something like someone gets cancer and insurance doesn't cover the treatment and they end up a million bucks in debt to the hospital. But the numbers above seem to cover someone who got fired, bet all their savings on black at the roulette table, and also visited the dentist.

wat10000 2mo ago

Please don't abuse "objectively." There's no objective measure of what "working OK" even means in the first place, let alone objective information that says whether or not we meet that bar. EU life expectancy was 81.7 in 2024. Two years makes one of them OK and the other not? What do we call a place like Hungary which is quite a bit below the US here? Or maybe it's OK because they don't spend as much? I also said for most Americans. Bad life expectancy is concentrated in the poorest Americans. Which is not a good thing to say about this country, but it does mean that most Americans live longer. Again, I'm not a defender of our system. But the average American gets decent care and is not bankrupted by major illness.

ajuc 2mo ago
If you pay much more and get worse results that's objectively not OK. It means the system is inefficient and could be easily improved saving lives and money. > Bad life expectancy is concentrated in the poorest Americans. Which is not a good thing to say about this country, but it does mean that most Americans live longer. I've seen this defence many times, in different contexts, and it always strikes me as very strange. Why do you assume most Americans are rich? And why do you assume they are the ones that matter? Very weird. But let's take it at face value. Looking at the graph of life expectancy vs percentile of income - US seems to be below 80 years for 50th percentile: https://preview.redd.it/at-every-income-level-us-americans-live-shorter-lives-than-v0-o0bgbvq6t3ra1.jpg?auto=webp&s=382645f76c5013a9f78e4e528947321722cd564a https://preview.redd.it/at-every-income-level-us-americans-l... Which would make your point false regardless of the weirdness of it. Another interesting graph: https://ourworldindata.org/cdn-cgi/imagedelivery/qLq-8BTgXU8yG0N6HnOy8g/37516ca3-0ff6-4e48-25d7-e8e8b5be2f00/w=1350 https://ourworldindata.org/cdn-cgi/imagedelivery/qLq-8BTgXU8... I would not call it "OK". > What do we call a place like Hungary which is quite a bit below the US here? I could do the trick you did, sayign that Hungary has the same life expectancy as Illinois, and richer parts of EU has better life expectancy, therefore Hungary doesn't matter. That would be disingenious tho. It does matter, and healthcare in Hungary obviously isn't doing OK. It is more cost-effective than US tho.
- wat10000 2mo ago