4 ms·

I saw an interesting stat recently that the poorest USA state, Mississippi, has a larger economy and GDP than 1/3rd of all EU members. It just seems like the E

by petcat 2mo ago

I saw an interesting stat recently that the poorest USA state, Mississippi, has a larger economy and GDP than 1/3rd of all EU members. It just seems like the EU is too top-heavy and I wonder if that's where a lot of the discontent comes from. It seems like there a lot of micro-nations in eastern Europe that have outsized influence over the union as a whole.

notfromhere 2mo ago
That example is a good reason nominal GDP has limits on what it can measure, as a drive thru Mississippi would show a poor state with small pockets of wealth
mmooss 2mo ago
> there a lot of micro-nations in eastern Europe that have outsized influence over the union as a whole Would you give an example of when that has happened? > It just seems like the EU is too top-heavy The EU intentionally admitted many poorer countries, to promote freedom, security and stability in Europe in the long term. Without EU membership, they would be under pressure from Russia and others. > discontent What discontent do you mean? There's always something, of course.
- inglor_cz 2mo ago
  > The EU intentionally admitted many poorer countries, to promote freedom, security and stability in Europe in the long term. Without EU membership, they would be under pressure from Russia and others. This is a bit of a non-sequitur, at least as far as Eurozone's anemic growth is concerned. France and Germany stagnating isn't caused by Poland or Romania growing. It is mostly their own internal systemic problems. There were times when German and Polish economies were both healthy, as little as 10 years ago. Sweden, another rich EU member, should grow by healthy 2.2 per cent this year, but Sweden is a lot more willing to actually reform its way out of problems than Germany is. Smaller countries have less inertia in such situations, and more maneuvering space.
  - mmooss 2mo ago
    Yours is the non-sequitur: I responded to a claim that the EU was 'top-heavy', which I interpreted as 'economic output is concentrated in a few countries'. Regardless of GDP growth, Germany and France output far more than some much smaller but faster growing countries.
- petcat 2mo ago
  > What discontent do you mean? I mean, Brexit was the ultimate discontent and it didn't just come out of nowhere. It's still very recent history and, as far as I know, the circumstances that caused it haven't really changed.
  - riffraff 2mo ago
    Brexit came out of a many years campaign to steer up hate against the EU. Boris Johnson famously said that was his job as a journalist. And of course, out of the middle class crisis in the 21st century. You have the same discontent outside the EU, except it doesn't get blamed on Bruxelles. That's how Trump gets elected, for example.
  - rwmj 2mo ago
    Brexit is widely regarded as both a failure (in the UK) and a cautionary lesson (in the rest of the EU).
    - gyanchawdhary 2mo ago
      By widely you mean the guardian readership ? Or some left leaning poll ? What’s your source ?
      - rsynnott 2mo ago
        It is fairly clear that all polling favours rejoining: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_re-accession_of_the_United_Kingdom_to_the_European_Union#Opinion_polling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_re-accession_of_the_... Interestingly, the inflection point seems to have been within months of the UK actually leaving (while the UK formally left in Jan 2020, nothing changed until Jan 2021).
        gyanchawdhary 2mo ago
        i see. so according to you (and the polsters) i guess its fair to conclude that a significant majority either wanted to remain in the EU or came to feel that way after brexit ... to further play along .. nigel farage .. an outsider to the political system (lets call him political white hat hacker) .. was able to exploit vulnerabilities in this system and the public opinion to get brexit over the line .. I'm curious to understand why those vulnerabilities existed in the first place .. and why weren’t they patched? also once you get hacked, its a sobering experience and u invest more in fixing the root cause .. so net net .. even with your narrative, brexit has been amazing for Great Britain (the best country in the world imho)
troupo 2mo ago
The US is a great example of why GDP is a largely meaningless metric. Yes, the States' GDP is ginormous, and yet it's basically a third-world country masquerading as a first-world one on most metrics that actually matter to people.
- wat10000 2mo ago
  Which metrics are those? Things don’t look great for the poorest Americans, but the average American isn’t living a life that’s even remotely third world.
  - rwmj 2mo ago
    Not facing the choice of dying or going bankrupt?
    - wat10000 2mo ago
      What’s the metric for that? The average American has decent health insurance. Our system can be painful and I'm not advocate for it, but the average American is not going bankrupt due to medical issues.
      - spockz 2mo ago
        I know this is anecdotal from what I read here and the few engineers I’ve spoken personally. Having a good job is the only way to get good/decent health care. Even then, there are many surprises in terms of what you have to pay yourself and how expensive certain things are. Basically any chronic disease will be very expensive. And don’t lose your job either because then you can kiss the insurance goodbye as well, kicking you even further down. Potentially deep into debt.
        anon291 2mo ago
        Not really. I was laid off and my daughter literally cut her finger off requiring expensive surgery and orthopedic stuff and my state covered all of it (over 100k in nominal cost) and our overall tax burden is less than most European countries. To be totally honest a lot of people in America don't apply for public benefits for whatever reason. Plenty of my colleagues decided to pay for cobra instead of using free Medicaid which has a zero copay in my state. In another situation, my brother's high school friends dad was preparing to die from prostate cancer because he could afford treatment. My mom made him sign up for public benefits and they covered everything
hackernud3s 2mo ago
Poorest is a function of per-capita income and larger economy is a function of population. You're comparing different things.
- wat10000 2mo ago
  Per capita GDP of Mississippi still puts it in about the middle of the pack of EU countries, despite being the lowest among US states by some margin.
  - hackernud3s 2mo ago
    I'm sure that's true but GDP is also not a good metric because for example it includes health care spend. If MS spends more on insulin than an EU state it improves that metric which is the opposite of what we're trying to measure I imagine.
Epa095 2mo ago
15-20% of Mississippis GDP is healthcare cost. Gdp is not really a great measure of how well an economy works for it's inhabitants, if it was we should all spend our time breaking each others windows.
toasty228 2mo ago
I don't think you realize how absurdly overpriced everything is in the US, which inflate GDP quite a lot... I paid less to build my entire top of the line house in eastern Europe than some American spend on a garage extension and a concrete driveway
- nozzlegear 2mo ago
  What constitutes a top of the line house in Eastern Europe? It's unlikely to be what Mississippians consider top of the line.
  - talideon 2mo ago
    We're not talking commie blocks here, nor macmansions, which is what passes for top-of-the-line in a disappointingly large segment of the US.
  - dismalaf 2mo ago
    https://www.moderndream.cz/katalog-domu/ https://www.moderndream.cz/katalog-domu/ Some of these models are pretty modestly priced (~$500k USD) but more modern than any house you'll find in North America until you reach a price point in the several million range. Certainly higher quality, nicer and more modern than any McMansion.
    - nozzlegear 2mo ago
      Interesting, thanks for the link. For comparison, here are the "top of the line" houses in my area (Iowa, not Mississippi): https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-search/Okoboji_IA/sby-2 https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-search/Okoboji_IA... This is largely lakefront property in a somewhat touristy area of my state, so that influences the prices a lot.
      - dismalaf 2mo ago
        The link I provided is a builder and the standard cost for what's considered somewhat high end modern construction. Tons of new homes like this BTW. Your link is just expensive homes on real estate with varying levels of build quality by the look of things so not exactly comparing apples to apples... If you just want to see expensive real estate in Czech Republic (I know, not Poland, but still Eastern Europe) here: https://www.sreality.cz/hledani/domy?razeni=nejdrazsi&cena-od=20000000&cena-do=1000000000 https://www.sreality.cz/hledani/domy?razeni=nejdrazsi&cena-o...
andrepd 2mo ago
The conclusion you should draw from this is therefore "GDP is a shit metric for measuring anything and even worse as a target".

by petcat 2mo ago

notfromhere 2mo ago

That example is a good reason nominal GDP has limits on what it can measure, as a drive thru Mississippi would show a poor state with small pockets of wealth

mmooss 2mo ago

> there a lot of micro-nations in eastern Europe that have outsized influence over the union as a whole Would you give an example of when that has happened? > It just seems like the EU is too top-heavy The EU intentionally admitted many poorer countries, to promote freedom, security and stability in Europe in the long term. Without EU membership, they would be under pressure from Russia and others. > discontent What discontent do you mean? There's always something, of course.

inglor_cz 2mo ago
> The EU intentionally admitted many poorer countries, to promote freedom, security and stability in Europe in the long term. Without EU membership, they would be under pressure from Russia and others. This is a bit of a non-sequitur, at least as far as Eurozone's anemic growth is concerned. France and Germany stagnating isn't caused by Poland or Romania growing. It is mostly their own internal systemic problems. There were times when German and Polish economies were both healthy, as little as 10 years ago. Sweden, another rich EU member, should grow by healthy 2.2 per cent this year, but Sweden is a lot more willing to actually reform its way out of problems than Germany is. Smaller countries have less inertia in such situations, and more maneuvering space.
- mmooss 2mo ago
  Yours is the non-sequitur: I responded to a claim that the EU was 'top-heavy', which I interpreted as 'economic output is concentrated in a few countries'. Regardless of GDP growth, Germany and France output far more than some much smaller but faster growing countries.
petcat 2mo ago
> What discontent do you mean? I mean, Brexit was the ultimate discontent and it didn't just come out of nowhere. It's still very recent history and, as far as I know, the circumstances that caused it haven't really changed.
- riffraff 2mo ago
  Brexit came out of a many years campaign to steer up hate against the EU. Boris Johnson famously said that was his job as a journalist. And of course, out of the middle class crisis in the 21st century. You have the same discontent outside the EU, except it doesn't get blamed on Bruxelles. That's how Trump gets elected, for example.
- rwmj 2mo ago
  Brexit is widely regarded as both a failure (in the UK) and a cautionary lesson (in the rest of the EU).
  - gyanchawdhary 2mo ago
    By widely you mean the guardian readership ? Or some left leaning poll ? What’s your source ?
    - rsynnott 2mo ago
      It is fairly clear that all polling favours rejoining: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_re-accession_of_the_United_Kingdom_to_the_European_Union#Opinion_polling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_re-accession_of_the_... Interestingly, the inflection point seems to have been within months of the UK actually leaving (while the UK formally left in Jan 2020, nothing changed until Jan 2021).
      - gyanchawdhary 2mo ago
        i see. so according to you (and the polsters) i guess its fair to conclude that a significant majority either wanted to remain in the EU or came to feel that way after brexit ... to further play along .. nigel farage .. an outsider to the political system (lets call him political white hat hacker) .. was able to exploit vulnerabilities in this system and the public opinion to get brexit over the line .. I'm curious to understand why those vulnerabilities existed in the first place .. and why weren’t they patched? also once you get hacked, its a sobering experience and u invest more in fixing the root cause .. so net net .. even with your narrative, brexit has been amazing for Great Britain (the best country in the world imho)

troupo 2mo ago

The US is a great example of why GDP is a largely meaningless metric. Yes, the States' GDP is ginormous, and yet it's basically a third-world country masquerading as a first-world one on most metrics that actually matter to people.

wat10000 2mo ago
Which metrics are those? Things don’t look great for the poorest Americans, but the average American isn’t living a life that’s even remotely third world.
- rwmj 2mo ago
  Not facing the choice of dying or going bankrupt?
  - wat10000 2mo ago
    What’s the metric for that? The average American has decent health insurance. Our system can be painful and I'm not advocate for it, but the average American is not going bankrupt due to medical issues.
    - spockz 2mo ago
      I know this is anecdotal from what I read here and the few engineers I’ve spoken personally. Having a good job is the only way to get good/decent health care. Even then, there are many surprises in terms of what you have to pay yourself and how expensive certain things are. Basically any chronic disease will be very expensive. And don’t lose your job either because then you can kiss the insurance goodbye as well, kicking you even further down. Potentially deep into debt.
      - anon291 2mo ago
        Not really. I was laid off and my daughter literally cut her finger off requiring expensive surgery and orthopedic stuff and my state covered all of it (over 100k in nominal cost) and our overall tax burden is less than most European countries. To be totally honest a lot of people in America don't apply for public benefits for whatever reason. Plenty of my colleagues decided to pay for cobra instead of using free Medicaid which has a zero copay in my state. In another situation, my brother's high school friends dad was preparing to die from prostate cancer because he could afford treatment. My mom made him sign up for public benefits and they covered everything

hackernud3s 2mo ago

Poorest is a function of per-capita income and larger economy is a function of population. You're comparing different things.

wat10000 2mo ago
Per capita GDP of Mississippi still puts it in about the middle of the pack of EU countries, despite being the lowest among US states by some margin.
- hackernud3s 2mo ago
  I'm sure that's true but GDP is also not a good metric because for example it includes health care spend. If MS spends more on insulin than an EU state it improves that metric which is the opposite of what we're trying to measure I imagine.

Epa095 2mo ago

15-20% of Mississippis GDP is healthcare cost. Gdp is not really a great measure of how well an economy works for it's inhabitants, if it was we should all spend our time breaking each others windows.

toasty228 2mo ago

I don't think you realize how absurdly overpriced everything is in the US, which inflate GDP quite a lot... I paid less to build my entire top of the line house in eastern Europe than some American spend on a garage extension and a concrete driveway

nozzlegear 2mo ago
What constitutes a top of the line house in Eastern Europe? It's unlikely to be what Mississippians consider top of the line.
- talideon 2mo ago
  We're not talking commie blocks here, nor macmansions, which is what passes for top-of-the-line in a disappointingly large segment of the US.
- dismalaf 2mo ago
  https://www.moderndream.cz/katalog-domu/ https://www.moderndream.cz/katalog-domu/ Some of these models are pretty modestly priced (~$500k USD) but more modern than any house you'll find in North America until you reach a price point in the several million range. Certainly higher quality, nicer and more modern than any McMansion.
  - nozzlegear 2mo ago
    Interesting, thanks for the link. For comparison, here are the "top of the line" houses in my area (Iowa, not Mississippi): https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-search/Okoboji_IA/sby-2 https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-search/Okoboji_IA... This is largely lakefront property in a somewhat touristy area of my state, so that influences the prices a lot.
    - dismalaf 2mo ago
      The link I provided is a builder and the standard cost for what's considered somewhat high end modern construction. Tons of new homes like this BTW. Your link is just expensive homes on real estate with varying levels of build quality by the look of things so not exactly comparing apples to apples... If you just want to see expensive real estate in Czech Republic (I know, not Poland, but still Eastern Europe) here: https://www.sreality.cz/hledani/domy?razeni=nejdrazsi&cena-od=20000000&cena-do=1000000000 https://www.sreality.cz/hledani/domy?razeni=nejdrazsi&cena-o...

andrepd 2mo ago

The conclusion you should draw from this is therefore "GDP is a shit metric for measuring anything and even worse as a target".