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I don't think people want this. I think people want the other benefits that those things bring, and increasingly feel that it's impossible to escape being surve

by JohnFen 2mo ago

I don't think people want this. I think people want the other benefits that those things bring, and increasingly feel that it's impossible to escape being surveilled anyway so do their best to ignore the whole issue. Being resigned to something is not the same as wanting that thing.

bamboozled 2mo ago
Agree, you’re either a digital hermit or you’re part of the problem / system
- forgetfreeman 2mo ago
  The really obnoxious part is that with the possible exception of maps all of the other "services" touted as vital parts of a digitally connected existence are so enshittified at this point that the original value proposition for all of them is absent. So we're left with this zombie rhetoric around being disconnected while "connecting" means you spend hours every day staring at bot content and ads.
  - therealdrag0 2mo ago
    You really spend hours a day staring at bots and ads?
    - esseph 2mo ago
      Most do.
    - forgetfreeman 2mo ago
      Fuck no, I stopped using my phone for anything besides maps and phone stuff before the pandemic. You peddling the idea that that isn't what all of the social platforms are these days?
  - harimau777 2mo ago
    I'm not sure that's really true. The two that come immediately to mind are Facebook or Discord for organizing with friends and language translation while traveling.
    - forgetfreeman 2mo ago
      I mean I might give it to you for Discord but Facebook is an easy win here. There's so much bot crap on Facebook Meta keeps getting dragged in front of congress over it.
- therealdrag0 2mo ago
  It’s enticing to believe we coulda gone another way. Such as having a paid versions of these services. But free is just Soooo enticing. It hacks peoples brains.
  - lux-lux-lux 2mo ago
    That cellphone and car and television and most other things that spy on you were most certainly not free.
- ColdStream 2mo ago
  Alas this is the structure of power. Either you have to do a total rejection of its benefits or you end up being sucked into the system as others practically force people into it for fear of being left behind.
cosmic_cheese 2mo ago
Sometimes it’s also a pain to opt out. The outrageous prices of used (low telemetry) cars make them a poor value proposition, for example. Depending on the model, a used car can be a decade old with half of its lifetime miles on it already and the seller will still want $14k or something crazy like that. When you factor in the parts of its history that carfax doesn’t cover and the stream of repairs you’re likely to be saddled with, finding a 0%-2% financing deal on something new at ~$20-24k begins to look a lot more attractive.
margalabargala 2mo ago
> I don't think people want this There was a comment made here a month or two ago, about someone from a SE Asia country (I forget which; maybe Bangladesh?) talking about how their government installed AI traffic enforcement cameras all over, and they went from one of the deadliest, most chaotic road systems in the world to Singapore-level rule-following in the space of just a couple months. As a result, the cameras have become quite popular because there's less traffic, travelling is easier and more predictable, and road deaths have plummeted. I imagine there are a number of similar situations in every country, where the deployment of AI surveillance has a sufficiently measurably positive impact that it becomes popular.
- zahlman 2mo ago
  > their government installed AI traffic enforcement cameras all over What does the AI actually do? Identify specific cars and their drivers, or something? What actual enforcement actions were taken as a result, and against how many drivers before it stopped? One might wonder how much of the effect was placebo (i.e., people conforming simply due to the belief of being surveilled).
  - margalabargala 2mo ago
    > What does the AI actually do? Identify specific cars and their drivers, or something? Yes, exactly. It identifies cars and drivers who are committing traffic violations, and issues citations. I don't have the specific numbers you ask for, seeing as I can't even remember the country, but it's not difficult to imagine that if sufficiently many such cameras are installed that most moving violations on major roadways are caught and punished, then yes, people will come to (reasonably) believe that the cost of committing the violation is close to the price of the fine, rather than close to zero. It's one thing to blow by a pedestrian crossing the street, it's another to do so knowing you'll probably be charged $150 (or whatever) for having done it.
    - andai 2mo ago
      There was an article on the front page today titled something like "incentives are for schmucks", which I didn't like very much. In this case, incentives are for people who'd like to reduce traffic deaths.
ColdStream 2mo ago
All successful negative things have a claim to virtue that they hide behind.

by JohnFen 2mo ago

bamboozled 2mo ago

Agree, you’re either a digital hermit or you’re part of the problem / system

forgetfreeman 2mo ago
The really obnoxious part is that with the possible exception of maps all of the other "services" touted as vital parts of a digitally connected existence are so enshittified at this point that the original value proposition for all of them is absent. So we're left with this zombie rhetoric around being disconnected while "connecting" means you spend hours every day staring at bot content and ads.
- therealdrag0 2mo ago
  You really spend hours a day staring at bots and ads?
  - esseph 2mo ago
    Most do.
  - forgetfreeman 2mo ago
    Fuck no, I stopped using my phone for anything besides maps and phone stuff before the pandemic. You peddling the idea that that isn't what all of the social platforms are these days?
- harimau777 2mo ago
  I'm not sure that's really true. The two that come immediately to mind are Facebook or Discord for organizing with friends and language translation while traveling.
  - forgetfreeman 2mo ago
    I mean I might give it to you for Discord but Facebook is an easy win here. There's so much bot crap on Facebook Meta keeps getting dragged in front of congress over it.
therealdrag0 2mo ago
It’s enticing to believe we coulda gone another way. Such as having a paid versions of these services. But free is just Soooo enticing. It hacks peoples brains.
- lux-lux-lux 2mo ago
  That cellphone and car and television and most other things that spy on you were most certainly not free.
ColdStream 2mo ago
Alas this is the structure of power. Either you have to do a total rejection of its benefits or you end up being sucked into the system as others practically force people into it for fear of being left behind.

cosmic_cheese 2mo ago

Sometimes it’s also a pain to opt out. The outrageous prices of used (low telemetry) cars make them a poor value proposition, for example. Depending on the model, a used car can be a decade old with half of its lifetime miles on it already and the seller will still want $14k or something crazy like that. When you factor in the parts of its history that carfax doesn’t cover and the stream of repairs you’re likely to be saddled with, finding a 0%-2% financing deal on something new at ~$20-24k begins to look a lot more attractive.

margalabargala 2mo ago

> I don't think people want this There was a comment made here a month or two ago, about someone from a SE Asia country (I forget which; maybe Bangladesh?) talking about how their government installed AI traffic enforcement cameras all over, and they went from one of the deadliest, most chaotic road systems in the world to Singapore-level rule-following in the space of just a couple months. As a result, the cameras have become quite popular because there's less traffic, travelling is easier and more predictable, and road deaths have plummeted. I imagine there are a number of similar situations in every country, where the deployment of AI surveillance has a sufficiently measurably positive impact that it becomes popular.

zahlman 2mo ago
> their government installed AI traffic enforcement cameras all over What does the AI actually do? Identify specific cars and their drivers, or something? What actual enforcement actions were taken as a result, and against how many drivers before it stopped? One might wonder how much of the effect was placebo (i.e., people conforming simply due to the belief of being surveilled).
- margalabargala 2mo ago
  > What does the AI actually do? Identify specific cars and their drivers, or something? Yes, exactly. It identifies cars and drivers who are committing traffic violations, and issues citations. I don't have the specific numbers you ask for, seeing as I can't even remember the country, but it's not difficult to imagine that if sufficiently many such cameras are installed that most moving violations on major roadways are caught and punished, then yes, people will come to (reasonably) believe that the cost of committing the violation is close to the price of the fine, rather than close to zero. It's one thing to blow by a pedestrian crossing the street, it's another to do so knowing you'll probably be charged $150 (or whatever) for having done it.
  - andai 2mo ago
    There was an article on the front page today titled something like "incentives are for schmucks", which I didn't like very much. In this case, incentives are for people who'd like to reduce traffic deaths.

ColdStream 2mo ago

All successful negative things have a claim to virtue that they hide behind.