4 ms·

This is a good move. I teach a summer async remote course that's ending next week, but I'm giving all the students incompletes until they come back to campus an

This is a good move. I teach a summer async remote course that's ending next week, but I'm giving all the students incompletes until they come back to campus and take an in-person exam the first week of classes. All homework is worth a marginal amount, and if they fail the final they fail the class. I'm not going to spend my effort policing whether they're using AI or not in their class work because it's a losing battle. At the end of the day, they can either demonstrate mastery of the material at an exam or not. It makes the exams higher stakes, but that's where we are.

glimshe 2mo ago
I'd never pay to have you as a teacher, I'm sorry. Maybe your move makes a sense for the reputation of your university's degree, but as a student willing to pay to learn remotely, I'd not accept to be treated like children.
- williamcotton 2mo ago
  Are you after learning or an accredited degree?
- throw_m239339 2mo ago
  Well that's part of the issue with for profit education, if the student pays significant money for tuition, is he a customer or a student?
  - majormajor 2mo ago
    "The student is the customer" is a stupid metaphor that only caught on because a lot of people would rather just bring in dollars than worry about "are we actually teaching anything?"
    - hackyhacky 2mo ago
      It's not a metaphor. They are literally the customer.
      - otterley 2mo ago
        They're a customer in the same way that a martial arts student is a customer: getting your butt kicked is literally what you're paying for.
        hackyhacky 2mo ago
        Sure. And just like with a martial arts student, if you kick their butt too hard, you will lose the customer and might get sued.
        otterley 2mo ago
        Sued for giving out hard work assignments? That doesn't sound plausible. Under what theory would a student have a case?
        hackyhacky 2mo ago
        Teachers and school districts are often sued by irate parents when their little golden angel gets a bad grade. Schools are therefore incentivized to allow all students to pass, regardless of ability. https://www.cbsnews.com/philadelphia/news/suing-over-bad-grades/ https://www.cbsnews.com/philadelphia/news/suing-over-bad-gra... https://www.npr.org/2007/03/13/8278150/parent-sues-school-over-students-poor-grade https://www.npr.org/2007/03/13/8278150/parent-sues-school-ov...
- trentor 2mo ago
  You can learn remotely in his class. That's the whole point he is trying to make. Hybrid does not mean fully remote. If you want fully remote take a full remote class.
- pjmorris 2mo ago
  Do you think 'At the end of the day, they can either demonstrate mastery of the material at an exam or not' is a reasonable expectation for an adult? If so, how would an adult be treated while still expecting them to demonstrate mastery? If not, what do you think a reasonable expectation for an adult should be?
- pdhborges 2mo ago
  Are you willing to pay to learn remotely from a university with crappy reputation?
- cortesoft 2mo ago
  If you only care about the learning, then you could just take the incomplete. You don’t somehow lose the knowledge you gained. The only cost of an incomplete is it doesn’t help towards a degree, but a degree is just a signaling mechanism. If you want to be able to use their degree to signal something to someone, you will have to jump through their hoops.
- majormajor 2mo ago
  Adults don't have to prove things? As AI eats up the need for half-assed "I googled a few things and wrote something up and then slacked off for five hours" white-collar-paperwork jobs, it's gonna be pretty hard for people not willing or able to demonstrate that they can do anything that couldn't just be fully done with an "agent" instead.
- bonoboTP 2mo ago
  Regular graded assignments is the "treated like children" version. The adult treatment is that you can come to class if you want, you can do the assignments if you want, but if not, that's fine too. There is one test at the end, and it's your responsibility to prepare for it as you want. You manage your own time, we offer consultation, lectures, assignments, tutorials etc. but you can reject all of this and learn the material from some other textbook, and as long as you've mastered the material, you'll get a good grade at the exam. This is how German universities work, for the most part.
  - fluidcruft 2mo ago
    The problem is the vicious feedback nowadays of online student evaluations of professors. Professors that are rigorous get complaints and low rankings, kids don't sign up for their sections etc. Kids (parents) pay the administration and the administration wants to keep the customer happy. The only real answer are standardized exams (such as licensure exams) which are beyond parent pocketbook capture.
    - bonoboTP 2mo ago
      Or like Europe. You don't pay tuition, but if you slack off, and don't progress properly, you only have a limited number of exam retries and limited number of funded semesters. If you fail, you're out, choose another profession. You're not a customer, you're someone who is trying to prove themselves and get certified by experts on their knowledge. The "customer" of the university is whoever will glance at the degree paper and tries to ascertain the skill/knowledge level of the outgoing student. They have to give a good signal there. The reason this doesn't work in the US, is because they want mediocre children of rich parents to be pushed through, because college is a networking and social class-based finishing school, not a place for acquiring knowledge. (Also, there should be electives, but the rigorous backbone of a degree should be mandatory, so "students won't choose this course" doesn't come up.)
      - otterley 2mo ago
        > The reason this doesn't work in the US, is because they want mediocre children of rich parents to be pushed through, because college is a networking and social class-based finishing school, not a place for acquiring knowledge. Out of curiosity, which US university did you attend? I went to a well-known and highly-regarded public university in California, and they absolutely did not coddle their students. Poor-performing students regularly washed out.
- pbasista 2mo ago
  > I'd not accept to be treated like children. What is your expectation from such a class? What are you hoping to get out of it? If you merely want a tutor that will help you out navigate a topic you are interested in, with no strings attached, then sure, yes. No need to take exams. But if the goal is to get a formally recognized degree in some topic, then you will need to accept that there will be oversight over how you understand that topic. Because the institutions granting those degrees need to sign them off. And if they care about their reputation, they would be interested in signing off only on those students, who actually understand the topic. So there will need to be exams. In the AI era, it is close to impossible to guarantee that a remote exam will accurately evaluate your understanding of a topic. So the exams would need to be carried out in person. There is nothing children-specific in using such approach. It is merely one of the few still somewhat objective ways to actually test people's understanding of some topic.
Discordian93 2mo ago
I hope at least the homework is good prep for the exams, otherwise if its grade value is marginal there's little point from the PoV of a student that just needs to pass the class to take it seriously
- ModernMech 2mo ago
  Oh yes, the exam is basically: take your actual homework, augment it according to this spec. If they've built their homework themselves, they should be well prepared. If it's the first time they're looking at their own work, which has happened, they probably won't finish in time. It helps to be fluent in the codebase for a timed exam.

glimshe 2mo ago

I'd never pay to have you as a teacher, I'm sorry. Maybe your move makes a sense for the reputation of your university's degree, but as a student willing to pay to learn remotely, I'd not accept to be treated like children.

williamcotton 2mo ago
Are you after learning or an accredited degree?
throw_m239339 2mo ago
Well that's part of the issue with for profit education, if the student pays significant money for tuition, is he a customer or a student?
- majormajor 2mo ago
  "The student is the customer" is a stupid metaphor that only caught on because a lot of people would rather just bring in dollars than worry about "are we actually teaching anything?"
  - hackyhacky 2mo ago
    It's not a metaphor. They are literally the customer.
    - otterley 2mo ago
      They're a customer in the same way that a martial arts student is a customer: getting your butt kicked is literally what you're paying for.
      - hackyhacky 2mo ago
        Sure. And just like with a martial arts student, if you kick their butt too hard, you will lose the customer and might get sued.
        otterley 2mo ago
        Sued for giving out hard work assignments? That doesn't sound plausible. Under what theory would a student have a case?
        hackyhacky 2mo ago
        Teachers and school districts are often sued by irate parents when their little golden angel gets a bad grade. Schools are therefore incentivized to allow all students to pass, regardless of ability. https://www.cbsnews.com/philadelphia/news/suing-over-bad-grades/ https://www.cbsnews.com/philadelphia/news/suing-over-bad-gra... https://www.npr.org/2007/03/13/8278150/parent-sues-school-over-students-poor-grade https://www.npr.org/2007/03/13/8278150/parent-sues-school-ov...
trentor 2mo ago
You can learn remotely in his class. That's the whole point he is trying to make. Hybrid does not mean fully remote. If you want fully remote take a full remote class.
pjmorris 2mo ago
Do you think 'At the end of the day, they can either demonstrate mastery of the material at an exam or not' is a reasonable expectation for an adult? If so, how would an adult be treated while still expecting them to demonstrate mastery? If not, what do you think a reasonable expectation for an adult should be?
pdhborges 2mo ago
Are you willing to pay to learn remotely from a university with crappy reputation?
cortesoft 2mo ago
If you only care about the learning, then you could just take the incomplete. You don’t somehow lose the knowledge you gained. The only cost of an incomplete is it doesn’t help towards a degree, but a degree is just a signaling mechanism. If you want to be able to use their degree to signal something to someone, you will have to jump through their hoops.
majormajor 2mo ago
Adults don't have to prove things? As AI eats up the need for half-assed "I googled a few things and wrote something up and then slacked off for five hours" white-collar-paperwork jobs, it's gonna be pretty hard for people not willing or able to demonstrate that they can do anything that couldn't just be fully done with an "agent" instead.
bonoboTP 2mo ago
Regular graded assignments is the "treated like children" version. The adult treatment is that you can come to class if you want, you can do the assignments if you want, but if not, that's fine too. There is one test at the end, and it's your responsibility to prepare for it as you want. You manage your own time, we offer consultation, lectures, assignments, tutorials etc. but you can reject all of this and learn the material from some other textbook, and as long as you've mastered the material, you'll get a good grade at the exam. This is how German universities work, for the most part.
- fluidcruft 2mo ago
  The problem is the vicious feedback nowadays of online student evaluations of professors. Professors that are rigorous get complaints and low rankings, kids don't sign up for their sections etc. Kids (parents) pay the administration and the administration wants to keep the customer happy. The only real answer are standardized exams (such as licensure exams) which are beyond parent pocketbook capture.
  - bonoboTP 2mo ago
    Or like Europe. You don't pay tuition, but if you slack off, and don't progress properly, you only have a limited number of exam retries and limited number of funded semesters. If you fail, you're out, choose another profession. You're not a customer, you're someone who is trying to prove themselves and get certified by experts on their knowledge. The "customer" of the university is whoever will glance at the degree paper and tries to ascertain the skill/knowledge level of the outgoing student. They have to give a good signal there. The reason this doesn't work in the US, is because they want mediocre children of rich parents to be pushed through, because college is a networking and social class-based finishing school, not a place for acquiring knowledge. (Also, there should be electives, but the rigorous backbone of a degree should be mandatory, so "students won't choose this course" doesn't come up.)
    - otterley 2mo ago
      > The reason this doesn't work in the US, is because they want mediocre children of rich parents to be pushed through, because college is a networking and social class-based finishing school, not a place for acquiring knowledge. Out of curiosity, which US university did you attend? I went to a well-known and highly-regarded public university in California, and they absolutely did not coddle their students. Poor-performing students regularly washed out.
pbasista 2mo ago
> I'd not accept to be treated like children. What is your expectation from such a class? What are you hoping to get out of it? If you merely want a tutor that will help you out navigate a topic you are interested in, with no strings attached, then sure, yes. No need to take exams. But if the goal is to get a formally recognized degree in some topic, then you will need to accept that there will be oversight over how you understand that topic. Because the institutions granting those degrees need to sign them off. And if they care about their reputation, they would be interested in signing off only on those students, who actually understand the topic. So there will need to be exams. In the AI era, it is close to impossible to guarantee that a remote exam will accurately evaluate your understanding of a topic. So the exams would need to be carried out in person. There is nothing children-specific in using such approach. It is merely one of the few still somewhat objective ways to actually test people's understanding of some topic.

Discordian93 2mo ago

I hope at least the homework is good prep for the exams, otherwise if its grade value is marginal there's little point from the PoV of a student that just needs to pass the class to take it seriously

ModernMech 2mo ago
Oh yes, the exam is basically: take your actual homework, augment it according to this spec. If they've built their homework themselves, they should be well prepared. If it's the first time they're looking at their own work, which has happened, they probably won't finish in time. It helps to be fluent in the codebase for a timed exam.