5 ms·

Ok. A serious question. I frequently hear that wind and solar are the cheapest forms of electricity. Then why are they using gas turbines? Is it because they ca

by mocana 2mo ago

Ok. A serious question. I frequently hear that wind and solar are the cheapest forms of electricity. Then why are they using gas turbines? Is it because they can generate more power with a smaller real estate footprint?

unnamed76ri 2mo ago
You need a ton of land for solar and no renewable is as reliable as fossil fuels.
- unnamed76ri 2mo ago
  HN, where inconvenient truths get you downvoted
swiftcoder 2mo ago
Under current administration, I'm not even sure its possible to build out green energy for this sort of thing at scale - this article[1] was on the front page just yesterday [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49208314 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49208314
- smallerize 2mo ago
  The court cases are starting to have effect. https://arstechnica.com/science/2026/08/trump-is-losing-his-war-on-wind-power/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2026/08/trump-is-losing-his-...
Schiendelman 2mo ago
It's because the permits are easier to get. It's very hard to get people to organize to make renewable energy permitting easier.
- MrToadMan 2mo ago
  In some cases, aren’t the permits not even being sought? Eg https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/pollution-musks-unpermitted-xai-power-project-hits-hardest-black-communities-2026-07-14/ https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/pollution-musks-unper...
  - Schiendelman 2mo ago
    Sure, you don't pay millions of dollars in engineering for a permit you obviously aren't going to be able to get. That's a big part of the problem, they're unpredictable.
lee_ars 2mo ago
Texas specifically has heavily politicized and demonized wind power, in spite of having massive successes with it prior to 2016 and being a leading producer of it. Solar isn't as bad, but is still seen as "leftist." The political landscape in TX is vastly more friendly to natural gas. In other words, they are using gas turbines because the politicians are stupid.
- xienze 2mo ago
  I think you might want to download new anti-Texas talking points. Texas is number two in the nation in solar power: https://seia.org/media/16020/texas.pdf/ https://seia.org/media/16020/texas.pdf/ Texas is not at all against renewables. Maybe, just maybe, whatever axes the people building data centers are optimizing on rule out solar/wind over factors other than "renewables are for leftists, so fuck that we're gonna burn gas even if it's more expensive."
  - shakna 2mo ago
    15th for non-residential? Sounds like people overwhelmingly put it on their roofs, and politicians avoid it.
    - infecto 2mo ago
      Did you miss the 1st utility part? It can be quite hard for nonresidential users to retrofit for solar. Not impossible but sometimes not an easy solve.
      - shakna 2mo ago
        Sorry, I do have a bias. > 11.40% of TX electricity is from solar This is... Not a huge statement to me. My home state is at 16% solar, and we're calling it inadequate. [0] Its not a 1-to-1, as we have probably 10% of the people, and 1/3 of the landmass. More spread out, different demand, so a completely different landscape. But 11% is not some victory dance. [0] https://www.energy.vic.gov.au/about-energy/news/news-stories/Victoria-powers-beyond-its-2025-renewable-energy-target https://www.energy.vic.gov.au/about-energy/news/news-stories...
matkoniecz 2mo ago
gas turbines are not intermittent > I frequently hear that wind and solar are the cheapest forms of electricity presumably they put zero value on stable production or count subsidies as income
DGAP 2mo ago
Renewables require storage because they are bursty - sun goes down, wind stops blowing. This is more expensive than just burning as much nat gas as you need.
- hahahaa 2mo ago
  How is it more expensive? Any links? Once built out yeah there is maintainance but no need to drill baby drill anymore.
  - therealdrag0 2mo ago
    The cost of energy varies widely based on regional factors, geography, existing energy portfolio makeup, etc. Additionally cost is not just the unit price but the price overtime to support a specific SLA. Texas has very cheap gas; it’s also good for solar. They are very competitive price wise, so it’s kinda depressing they are using gas. But it’s probably a slight price edge plus better reliability.
- fallingbananna 2mo ago
  Presumably, the data center usage could also be bursty, right? More people will be using AI during the (work)day, than at midnight. Then they could do half solar, half gas. Also "more expensive" when it comes to solar isn't meaningful until you also consider timeframe. Solar panels pay themselves off in a few years, and after that they basically generate "free" electricity. Gas never becomes cheaper or free, every year it will cost money.
  - DennisP 2mo ago
    AWS is heavily used worldwide, not just in the US. The same goes for the big AI companies. Timeframe is accounted for if you look at levelized cost per kWh. The levelized cost of natural gas is 5 to 11 cents/kWh. In the sunniest spots, the levelized cost of solar with enough battery storage to provide 24/7 power is about the same, if you want >90% reliability. The usual four hours of storage is only enough to account for the "duck curve" during the day. https://www.pv-tech.org/solar-pv-and-storage-cost-declines-drive-rapid-fall-in-firm-lcoe-says-irena/ https://www.pv-tech.org/solar-pv-and-storage-cost-declines-d... https://ember-energy.org/latest-insights/solar-electricity-every-hour-of-every-day-is-here-and-it-changes-everything/ https://ember-energy.org/latest-insights/solar-electricity-e... Solar and batteries keep getting cheaper so hopefully they will be clear winners soon, at least in sunny areas.
inigyou 2mo ago
For a DC it's probably reliability. You need wind to be spread over a large area to even out random changes in power availability. And, obviously, solar power works during the day.
- atonse 2mo ago
  But this is essentially a solved problem even at utility scale, with renewables + battery banks, right? This isn't cutting edge stuff.
deleted 2mo ago
[deleted]
jillesvangurp 2mo ago
Because the US has some policies that make those currently more expensive than they should be while. A combination of tariffs, removal of incentives for local producers, etc. has caused prices to be higher than they could be. All of this is because of fossil fuel lobby funded campaigns for exactly this to happen. The flip side of course is that gas turbines are in short supply and manufacturers are in no hurry to build out production capacity for what is effectively obsolete technology with a very uncertain future. A lot of the projects being announced may never get delivered for the simple reason that there are long waiting lists for these things. And there is the notion that related investments might end up under water when the few plants that do get built start struggling economically in ten years or so. These are not very attractive long term investments. The short term interest in securing any capacity at all is overriding this. Of the well over a hundred GW of data centers planned until 2035, probably only less than a 30-40% will actually get built; if not less. Michael Liebreich is predicting only about 35GW will be realized. His estimate is that there simply is no more production capacity that can be committed than that. It will be interesting to see if this Amazon plant actually gets built. For now Amazon can afford to gamble on this and just write it off if it doesn't work out. If policy changes in a few years, I expect a lot of these projects to get unceremoniously cancelled when it turns out that they are a combination of under water financially and behind on schedule because of component shortages anyway. Also, it only takes a few failed projects for everyone to get cold feet. Premature closures of new gas plants could happen if renewables get cheap enough. Those are already happening in some places.

by mocana 2mo ago

unnamed76ri 2mo ago

You need a ton of land for solar and no renewable is as reliable as fossil fuels.

unnamed76ri 2mo ago
HN, where inconvenient truths get you downvoted

swiftcoder 2mo ago

Under current administration, I'm not even sure its possible to build out green energy for this sort of thing at scale - this article[1] was on the front page just yesterday [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49208314 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49208314

smallerize 2mo ago
The court cases are starting to have effect. https://arstechnica.com/science/2026/08/trump-is-losing-his-war-on-wind-power/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2026/08/trump-is-losing-his-...

Schiendelman 2mo ago

It's because the permits are easier to get. It's very hard to get people to organize to make renewable energy permitting easier.

MrToadMan 2mo ago
In some cases, aren’t the permits not even being sought? Eg https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/pollution-musks-unpermitted-xai-power-project-hits-hardest-black-communities-2026-07-14/ https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/pollution-musks-unper...
- Schiendelman 2mo ago
  Sure, you don't pay millions of dollars in engineering for a permit you obviously aren't going to be able to get. That's a big part of the problem, they're unpredictable.

lee_ars 2mo ago

Texas specifically has heavily politicized and demonized wind power, in spite of having massive successes with it prior to 2016 and being a leading producer of it. Solar isn't as bad, but is still seen as "leftist." The political landscape in TX is vastly more friendly to natural gas. In other words, they are using gas turbines because the politicians are stupid.

xienze 2mo ago
I think you might want to download new anti-Texas talking points. Texas is number two in the nation in solar power: https://seia.org/media/16020/texas.pdf/ https://seia.org/media/16020/texas.pdf/ Texas is not at all against renewables. Maybe, just maybe, whatever axes the people building data centers are optimizing on rule out solar/wind over factors other than "renewables are for leftists, so fuck that we're gonna burn gas even if it's more expensive."
- shakna 2mo ago
  15th for non-residential? Sounds like people overwhelmingly put it on their roofs, and politicians avoid it.
  - infecto 2mo ago
    Did you miss the 1st utility part? It can be quite hard for nonresidential users to retrofit for solar. Not impossible but sometimes not an easy solve.
    - shakna 2mo ago
      Sorry, I do have a bias. > 11.40% of TX electricity is from solar This is... Not a huge statement to me. My home state is at 16% solar, and we're calling it inadequate. [0] Its not a 1-to-1, as we have probably 10% of the people, and 1/3 of the landmass. More spread out, different demand, so a completely different landscape. But 11% is not some victory dance. [0] https://www.energy.vic.gov.au/about-energy/news/news-stories/Victoria-powers-beyond-its-2025-renewable-energy-target https://www.energy.vic.gov.au/about-energy/news/news-stories...

matkoniecz 2mo ago

gas turbines are not intermittent > I frequently hear that wind and solar are the cheapest forms of electricity presumably they put zero value on stable production or count subsidies as income

DGAP 2mo ago

Renewables require storage because they are bursty - sun goes down, wind stops blowing. This is more expensive than just burning as much nat gas as you need.

hahahaa 2mo ago
How is it more expensive? Any links? Once built out yeah there is maintainance but no need to drill baby drill anymore.
- therealdrag0 2mo ago
  The cost of energy varies widely based on regional factors, geography, existing energy portfolio makeup, etc. Additionally cost is not just the unit price but the price overtime to support a specific SLA. Texas has very cheap gas; it’s also good for solar. They are very competitive price wise, so it’s kinda depressing they are using gas. But it’s probably a slight price edge plus better reliability.
fallingbananna 2mo ago
Presumably, the data center usage could also be bursty, right? More people will be using AI during the (work)day, than at midnight. Then they could do half solar, half gas. Also "more expensive" when it comes to solar isn't meaningful until you also consider timeframe. Solar panels pay themselves off in a few years, and after that they basically generate "free" electricity. Gas never becomes cheaper or free, every year it will cost money.
- DennisP 2mo ago
  AWS is heavily used worldwide, not just in the US. The same goes for the big AI companies. Timeframe is accounted for if you look at levelized cost per kWh. The levelized cost of natural gas is 5 to 11 cents/kWh. In the sunniest spots, the levelized cost of solar with enough battery storage to provide 24/7 power is about the same, if you want >90% reliability. The usual four hours of storage is only enough to account for the "duck curve" during the day. https://www.pv-tech.org/solar-pv-and-storage-cost-declines-drive-rapid-fall-in-firm-lcoe-says-irena/ https://www.pv-tech.org/solar-pv-and-storage-cost-declines-d... https://ember-energy.org/latest-insights/solar-electricity-every-hour-of-every-day-is-here-and-it-changes-everything/ https://ember-energy.org/latest-insights/solar-electricity-e... Solar and batteries keep getting cheaper so hopefully they will be clear winners soon, at least in sunny areas.

inigyou 2mo ago

For a DC it's probably reliability. You need wind to be spread over a large area to even out random changes in power availability. And, obviously, solar power works during the day.

atonse 2mo ago
But this is essentially a solved problem even at utility scale, with renewables + battery banks, right? This isn't cutting edge stuff.

deleted 2mo ago

[deleted]

jillesvangurp 2mo ago

Because the US has some policies that make those currently more expensive than they should be while. A combination of tariffs, removal of incentives for local producers, etc. has caused prices to be higher than they could be. All of this is because of fossil fuel lobby funded campaigns for exactly this to happen. The flip side of course is that gas turbines are in short supply and manufacturers are in no hurry to build out production capacity for what is effectively obsolete technology with a very uncertain future. A lot of the projects being announced may never get delivered for the simple reason that there are long waiting lists for these things. And there is the notion that related investments might end up under water when the few plants that do get built start struggling economically in ten years or so. These are not very attractive long term investments. The short term interest in securing any capacity at all is overriding this. Of the well over a hundred GW of data centers planned until 2035, probably only less than a 30-40% will actually get built; if not less. Michael Liebreich is predicting only about 35GW will be realized. His estimate is that there simply is no more production capacity that can be committed than that. It will be interesting to see if this Amazon plant actually gets built. For now Amazon can afford to gamble on this and just write it off if it doesn't work out. If policy changes in a few years, I expect a lot of these projects to get unceremoniously cancelled when it turns out that they are a combination of under water financially and behind on schedule because of component shortages anyway. Also, it only takes a few failed projects for everyone to get cold feet. Premature closures of new gas plants could happen if renewables get cheap enough. Those are already happening in some places.