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Counterpoint: as a Mac user it is surreal to click Next Next Next to install a program on Windows. Same for uninstalling. Move to Trash and poof, unistalled.

Counterpoint: as a Mac user it is surreal to click Next Next Next to install a program on Windows. Same for uninstalling. Move to Trash and poof, unistalled. There is no standard way to install stuff, so neither MacOS nor Windows deviates from something. For all the bickering about it here in the comments, no one proposed an “ideal” solution to install a program on Mac.

IshKebab 2mo ago
At least with Windows it's always clear what to do. Mac can dump you in a finder window with two icons. Very unclear. You may have forgotten how unclear this can be for the first time.
- hahn-kev 2mo ago
  I grew up using windows and the first time I ran into that on the Mac I think I had to Google what to do.
  - justsomehnguy 2mo ago
    In my first time I needed like the whole 10 minutes to find where the system settings are.
mschuster91 2mo ago
Mac stuff can leave stuff ghosting around. Launch agents, helper tools installed into the Unix filesystem, configuration and cache files. A myriad of „uninstallers“ exist but these are all third party and rely on crowd wisdom.
frollogaston 2mo ago
Ideal solution: download .app inside .zip. Double-clicking expands it into /Applications, deletes the zip, and opens the app, which is not far from what regular zips do. Or xip if they want signing. The Windows way is inherently clearer than what Mac does now. You always open what it gives you, and you don't need to be told to do anything else. Also, move to trash doesn't exactly uninstall a Mac app right now.
psyclobe 2mo ago
That stupid nezt next elevate confirm page workflow on macos has always annoyed me for some reason. Its so idk redundant
jayd16 2mo ago
Hmm but a lot of macos uses the familiar cancel/next wizard flow, doesn't it?
jasode 2mo ago
>as a Mac user it is surreal to click Next Next Next to install a program on Windows. macOS has similar multi-step prompts for some programs such as Microsoft Office, Python, FUSE-T, VeraCrypt, etc: click [Continue] [Continue] [Agree] [Continue] [Install] enter password [Install Software] [Close] Then deal with the various popups in the upper right portion of the screen relating to Login Items & Extensions Background tasks. Dismiss them by clicking [x] several times or drill into them to adjust App Background Activity sliders etc. I also never understood why some apps put the x.pkg inside of a x.dmg which makes people perform another click. Seems redundant to do that. I can only guess is they just want the customized background image of the .dmg instead of the plain skeuomorphic cardbord box icon of the .pkg.
jeroenhd 2mo ago
> Same for uninstalling. Move to Trash and poof, unistalled. That removes most of the program files, but there is no chance for the program to run any cleanup process in the mean time. Library Support, .cache, and all other kinds of remnants remain and have no way of getting cleaned up without manual user intervention. It's like hunting down broken uninstaller files in Windows 98 all over again. The places that need cleaning up after uninstalling a program: ~/Library/Application Support/ ~/Library/Preferences/ ~/Library/Caches/ ~/Library/LaunchAgents/ Or possibly: /Library/Application Support/ /Library/LaunchDaemons/ /Library/LaunchAgents/ And possibly others that use UNIX-style .config/.cache rather than the macOS defaults. I do like the "folder as an executable" approach macOS has, but the way the ecosystem goes about program management isn't great. Storing caches and data inside of the app directory for applications installed to a user folder (not the global Applications folder, which would require administrative permissions) would go a long way. Entries in all the other folders could just be symlinks that don't take up any space after you trash a program. As for installers, macOS comes with its own native install wizard format, akin to Windows' MSI installers. This seems to be the default way of installing programs that need things like drivers to function correctly.
- kvuj 2mo ago
  Isn't it the same for Windows? There have been countless programs throughout the years that I've uninstalled and saw remnant folders in %appdata%, Documents folder, Program Files folder with only 2 remaining files inside, sometimes even hidden folders by default.
  - orphea 2mo ago
    > Isn't it the same for Windows? Sometimes. Many apps do clean up after themselves.
  - jeroenhd 2mo ago
    It depends on the program. Many of them clean up, usually with a little checkbox to confirm throwing away your settings, but a lot don't. It might not be 100% of the apps, or even 50% for that matter, but it happens. On macOS that mechanism is simply impossible if you install the app using the drag&drop method.
dgellow 2mo ago
I don’t believe they meant surreal in a negative way
eviks 2mo ago
What's the counterpoint if you're doing more clicks on a Mac, but those are harder than dumb linear next/next/next? > Same for uninstalling. Move to Trash and poof, unistalled. Of course it isn't, and you can do the same on Windows with the same "not really uninstalled" consequences

IshKebab 2mo ago

At least with Windows it's always clear what to do. Mac can dump you in a finder window with two icons. Very unclear. You may have forgotten how unclear this can be for the first time.

hahn-kev 2mo ago
I grew up using windows and the first time I ran into that on the Mac I think I had to Google what to do.
- justsomehnguy 2mo ago
  In my first time I needed like the whole 10 minutes to find where the system settings are.

mschuster91 2mo ago

Mac stuff can leave stuff ghosting around. Launch agents, helper tools installed into the Unix filesystem, configuration and cache files. A myriad of „uninstallers“ exist but these are all third party and rely on crowd wisdom.

frollogaston 2mo ago

Ideal solution: download .app inside .zip. Double-clicking expands it into /Applications, deletes the zip, and opens the app, which is not far from what regular zips do. Or xip if they want signing. The Windows way is inherently clearer than what Mac does now. You always open what it gives you, and you don't need to be told to do anything else. Also, move to trash doesn't exactly uninstall a Mac app right now.

psyclobe 2mo ago

That stupid nezt next elevate confirm page workflow on macos has always annoyed me for some reason. Its so idk redundant

jayd16 2mo ago

Hmm but a lot of macos uses the familiar cancel/next wizard flow, doesn't it?

jasode 2mo ago

>as a Mac user it is surreal to click Next Next Next to install a program on Windows. macOS has similar multi-step prompts for some programs such as Microsoft Office, Python, FUSE-T, VeraCrypt, etc: click [Continue] [Continue] [Agree] [Continue] [Install] enter password [Install Software] [Close] Then deal with the various popups in the upper right portion of the screen relating to Login Items & Extensions Background tasks. Dismiss them by clicking [x] several times or drill into them to adjust App Background Activity sliders etc. I also never understood why some apps put the x.pkg inside of a x.dmg which makes people perform another click. Seems redundant to do that. I can only guess is they just want the customized background image of the .dmg instead of the plain skeuomorphic cardbord box icon of the .pkg.

jeroenhd 2mo ago

> Same for uninstalling. Move to Trash and poof, unistalled. That removes most of the program files, but there is no chance for the program to run any cleanup process in the mean time. Library Support, .cache, and all other kinds of remnants remain and have no way of getting cleaned up without manual user intervention. It's like hunting down broken uninstaller files in Windows 98 all over again. The places that need cleaning up after uninstalling a program: ~/Library/Application Support/ ~/Library/Preferences/ ~/Library/Caches/ ~/Library/LaunchAgents/ Or possibly: /Library/Application Support/ /Library/LaunchDaemons/ /Library/LaunchAgents/ And possibly others that use UNIX-style .config/.cache rather than the macOS defaults. I do like the "folder as an executable" approach macOS has, but the way the ecosystem goes about program management isn't great. Storing caches and data inside of the app directory for applications installed to a user folder (not the global Applications folder, which would require administrative permissions) would go a long way. Entries in all the other folders could just be symlinks that don't take up any space after you trash a program. As for installers, macOS comes with its own native install wizard format, akin to Windows' MSI installers. This seems to be the default way of installing programs that need things like drivers to function correctly.

kvuj 2mo ago
Isn't it the same for Windows? There have been countless programs throughout the years that I've uninstalled and saw remnant folders in %appdata%, Documents folder, Program Files folder with only 2 remaining files inside, sometimes even hidden folders by default.
- orphea 2mo ago
  > Isn't it the same for Windows? Sometimes. Many apps do clean up after themselves.
- jeroenhd 2mo ago
  It depends on the program. Many of them clean up, usually with a little checkbox to confirm throwing away your settings, but a lot don't. It might not be 100% of the apps, or even 50% for that matter, but it happens. On macOS that mechanism is simply impossible if you install the app using the drag&drop method.

dgellow 2mo ago

I don’t believe they meant surreal in a negative way

eviks 2mo ago

What's the counterpoint if you're doing more clicks on a Mac, but those are harder than dumb linear next/next/next? > Same for uninstalling. Move to Trash and poof, unistalled. Of course it isn't, and you can do the same on Windows with the same "not really uninstalled" consequences