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You're half right. UBI is probably the only path where humanity comes out OK in the not so distant future. But you don't give out UBI and let people become pot

You're half right. UBI is probably the only path where humanity comes out OK in the not so distant future. But you don't give out UBI and let people become potatoes. You give out UBI to allow them to meet their basic needs and then have them work a job they kfhr genuinely be OK at, and, ideally, enjoy. Ideally.

lazide 2mo ago
Why would the billionaires do UBI instead of Running Man (latest one)? Not a joke. All the folks talking about it, it sounds like some sort of fantasy cope to get people going along willingly into the void.
- noduerme 2mo ago
  Because if there's one thing billionaires should be scared of, it's billions of people suddenly becoming estranged from the economy. Having governments pump money into the consumer demand side becomes a no-brainer once you're faced with deflationary depression and mass unemployment. Your investors then get taxed to give UBI to workers to spend money to keep your sales up. It's probably the one form of wealth redistribution that on balance would actually benefit billionaires.
  - lazide 2mo ago
    That assumes a degree of forethought and worry about consequences that the current set of billionaires seems to be studiously avoiding - along with half of everyone else, near as I can tell.
    - generic92034 2mo ago
      Why worry if you can have an army of AI controlled combat robo dogs and drones? /s Now, times are becoming "interesting" again, unfortunately.
      - Y-bar 2mo ago
        I’m quite sure Peter Thiel, Larry Ellison, Jared Kushner, Sam Altman et al are unironically thinking that.
      - inigyou 2mo ago
        Remove the /s. This is the main purpose of robot dogs and drones.
        generic92034 2mo ago
        You know, they could also be used to keep invaders out of Ukraine. But for sure, that is not what billionaires have in mind for them.
  - watwut 2mo ago
    They dont give a shit about angry masses. Nor is the angry mass a risk to them. They have money for arms.
    - simonask 2mo ago
      The moat around billionaires isn't money, it's the political apathy of the American working class, which somehow believes itself to not exist. Well, it's also money, because it influences politics to maintain that apathy, but it feels like you guys could just not.
    - noduerme 2mo ago
      Idk. If I were a billionaire I'd be terrified, and not about simply finding a way to save my own skin. It would seem glaringly obvious that things can't go on in a way where 99.99% of people hate you.... I mean, not that you have to give away all your money, but a self-preservation instinct would demand you at least look like you're doing something more than raping the universe. I don't hate billionaires. They basically never cross my mind. All credit to those guys for doing what they did. I'm not personally jealous and I find the anger and jealousy at them to be petty and kind of stupid in a way that reflects badly on the person expressing it. Most of the billionaires in the tech sector didn't inherit that kind of wealth, and I respect the ones who earned what they earned. I wouldn't trade my life for theirs and I don't feel left out because I don't have private jets or islands. Whining you don't have a jet or an island is childish... grow a garden and get a dog, don't be jealous. Comparing what you have to someone else's possessions is a basic fault that makes a lot of people miserable for no reason, unable to appreciate what they have. Appreciate what you have. Billionaires can have everything you ever dreamed of and still be much more miserable than you. Good for them if they're happy, I say. I'm just also saying that if I were in their shoes I wouldn't think the current situation was tenable.
  - Lio 2mo ago
    Billionaires don’t worry. Not in the main. We’re going through a series of ever record breaking heat waves where the only thing you can be sure of is that it will be worse next year. They’re still pushing fossil fuels and blocking attempts to replace them with cheaper alternatives. They’re too focused on who got the biggest yacht to care.
  - LogicFailsMe 2mo ago
    Sooooo... Circular financing???
    - noduerme 2mo ago
      What else had capital been doing for the last 200 years?! It works when the financing loop is not zero-sum. It only leads to catastrophe when you get too successful and start to blow bubbles or invade other countries.
  - inigyou 2mo ago
    Why would they worry when we're all content to lay back and die? When was the last time someone murdered a billionaire? It almost never happens. They have no need to worry.
  - samiv 2mo ago
    When you have a surplus of poor people that might insinuate insurgency it's always possible (and cheap) to hire one half to kill the other half. Problem solved.
- Nasrudith 2mo ago
  Because you are talking about a cartoon version of a billionaire that doesn't exist outside your propaganda-addled head, doesn't have the power you imagine them to, nor the malice you ascribe to them.
noduerme 2mo ago
I agree with you. People need purpose. Ever owned a Border Collie and spent a couple days without giving it something to do? It's bad for the dog and dangerous to your home. So yeah, even if no one ever really enjoying being a gas station attendant, getting up and going to a job to earn money and pay rent gives people a sense of purpose. And UBI definitely risks robbing people of that purpose. The alternatives to UBI soon though might be creating fake jobs or letting people starve.
- simonask 2mo ago
  What's unfathomable to me is that so many people seem to believe that a sense of purpose can only be derived from need. Humans aren't like that. They don't deprive themselves of activity like a bored dog unless you (who?) give them a job. If you give people their time back, they will fill it out with whatever they actually want to do, and that's freedom. Conversely, the erosion of free time over the past generation has arguably also eroded the social structures that keep people healthy.
  - socalgal2 2mo ago
    Humans do seem to be like that. They need something other than complete free time There's an "epidemic" of people who have nothing to do and for whatever reason can't figure something out https://www.apa.org/monitor/2019/05/ce-corner-isolation https://www.apa.org/monitor/2019/05/ce-corner-isolation Retiree data also shows finanical freedom and free time often doesn't lead to people figuring out something to do
    - CuriousSkeptic 2mo ago
      Note sure this is a strong counter argument. It not that surprising that a system optimised in a certain direction has trouble accommodating operating modes it hasn’t optimised for.
    - duskdozer 2mo ago
      As retirees. One explanation could be the lack of free time and resources over the course of their life prevented them from developing themselves enough to have something to do. A small parallel is that (for me) a weekend is not enough to do much more than recover from the workweek. But two weeks off is enough to recover and then do some more things. Even then, it would take more time to do things of major significance.
ThrowawayR2 2mo ago
I'd be behind Universal Basic Employment: Any able-bodied person is assigned a job that visibly benefits society, even if something simple like sweeping the sidewalk or visiting the elderly, in exchange for basic food and shelter. If you're getting something from society, you need to give something back; both the left and right agree on that.
- codexjourneys 2mo ago
  The trick here is, what if you would rather do something else, as in a different job or start your own company? People need the option to pursue their dreams, or it's a dystopia.
- hirvi74 2mo ago
  My SO's step-grandfather was born in pre-WWII Hungary. He also spent a lot of his youth and younger years in the Czech Republic before and after the Prague Spring. He was telling me stories about how the communist had an implementation similar to what you were describing. There was a strong enforcement of everyone capable of doing something did something. He said it was not uncommon to see something like two men, each with one arm, operating a broom and dust pan. One would sweep, and the other would hold the dust pan. Or something else like a person confined to a wheelchair would be stationed to call center since walking was not necessary. He said the real toxic part of the policy was that since everyone was required to do some form of work, there was also an incentive to snitch on people that were not working. Snitches were rewarded, in fact. Thus, there were instances of false accusations, extortion, etc., so it seems like it was rife with corruption and bullshit like everything humanity touches.

lazide 2mo ago

Why would the billionaires do UBI instead of Running Man (latest one)? Not a joke. All the folks talking about it, it sounds like some sort of fantasy cope to get people going along willingly into the void.

noduerme 2mo ago
Because if there's one thing billionaires should be scared of, it's billions of people suddenly becoming estranged from the economy. Having governments pump money into the consumer demand side becomes a no-brainer once you're faced with deflationary depression and mass unemployment. Your investors then get taxed to give UBI to workers to spend money to keep your sales up. It's probably the one form of wealth redistribution that on balance would actually benefit billionaires.
- lazide 2mo ago
  That assumes a degree of forethought and worry about consequences that the current set of billionaires seems to be studiously avoiding - along with half of everyone else, near as I can tell.
  - generic92034 2mo ago
    Why worry if you can have an army of AI controlled combat robo dogs and drones? /s Now, times are becoming "interesting" again, unfortunately.
    - Y-bar 2mo ago
      I’m quite sure Peter Thiel, Larry Ellison, Jared Kushner, Sam Altman et al are unironically thinking that.
    - inigyou 2mo ago
      Remove the /s. This is the main purpose of robot dogs and drones.
      - generic92034 2mo ago
        You know, they could also be used to keep invaders out of Ukraine. But for sure, that is not what billionaires have in mind for them.
- watwut 2mo ago
  They dont give a shit about angry masses. Nor is the angry mass a risk to them. They have money for arms.
  - simonask 2mo ago
    The moat around billionaires isn't money, it's the political apathy of the American working class, which somehow believes itself to not exist. Well, it's also money, because it influences politics to maintain that apathy, but it feels like you guys could just not.
  - noduerme 2mo ago
    Idk. If I were a billionaire I'd be terrified, and not about simply finding a way to save my own skin. It would seem glaringly obvious that things can't go on in a way where 99.99% of people hate you.... I mean, not that you have to give away all your money, but a self-preservation instinct would demand you at least look like you're doing something more than raping the universe. I don't hate billionaires. They basically never cross my mind. All credit to those guys for doing what they did. I'm not personally jealous and I find the anger and jealousy at them to be petty and kind of stupid in a way that reflects badly on the person expressing it. Most of the billionaires in the tech sector didn't inherit that kind of wealth, and I respect the ones who earned what they earned. I wouldn't trade my life for theirs and I don't feel left out because I don't have private jets or islands. Whining you don't have a jet or an island is childish... grow a garden and get a dog, don't be jealous. Comparing what you have to someone else's possessions is a basic fault that makes a lot of people miserable for no reason, unable to appreciate what they have. Appreciate what you have. Billionaires can have everything you ever dreamed of and still be much more miserable than you. Good for them if they're happy, I say. I'm just also saying that if I were in their shoes I wouldn't think the current situation was tenable.
- Lio 2mo ago
  Billionaires don’t worry. Not in the main. We’re going through a series of ever record breaking heat waves where the only thing you can be sure of is that it will be worse next year. They’re still pushing fossil fuels and blocking attempts to replace them with cheaper alternatives. They’re too focused on who got the biggest yacht to care.
- LogicFailsMe 2mo ago
  Sooooo... Circular financing???
  - noduerme 2mo ago
    What else had capital been doing for the last 200 years?! It works when the financing loop is not zero-sum. It only leads to catastrophe when you get too successful and start to blow bubbles or invade other countries.
- inigyou 2mo ago
  Why would they worry when we're all content to lay back and die? When was the last time someone murdered a billionaire? It almost never happens. They have no need to worry.
- samiv 2mo ago
  When you have a surplus of poor people that might insinuate insurgency it's always possible (and cheap) to hire one half to kill the other half. Problem solved.
Nasrudith 2mo ago
Because you are talking about a cartoon version of a billionaire that doesn't exist outside your propaganda-addled head, doesn't have the power you imagine them to, nor the malice you ascribe to them.

noduerme 2mo ago

I agree with you. People need purpose. Ever owned a Border Collie and spent a couple days without giving it something to do? It's bad for the dog and dangerous to your home. So yeah, even if no one ever really enjoying being a gas station attendant, getting up and going to a job to earn money and pay rent gives people a sense of purpose. And UBI definitely risks robbing people of that purpose. The alternatives to UBI soon though might be creating fake jobs or letting people starve.

simonask 2mo ago
What's unfathomable to me is that so many people seem to believe that a sense of purpose can only be derived from need. Humans aren't like that. They don't deprive themselves of activity like a bored dog unless you (who?) give them a job. If you give people their time back, they will fill it out with whatever they actually want to do, and that's freedom. Conversely, the erosion of free time over the past generation has arguably also eroded the social structures that keep people healthy.
- socalgal2 2mo ago
  Humans do seem to be like that. They need something other than complete free time There's an "epidemic" of people who have nothing to do and for whatever reason can't figure something out https://www.apa.org/monitor/2019/05/ce-corner-isolation https://www.apa.org/monitor/2019/05/ce-corner-isolation Retiree data also shows finanical freedom and free time often doesn't lead to people figuring out something to do
  - CuriousSkeptic 2mo ago
    Note sure this is a strong counter argument. It not that surprising that a system optimised in a certain direction has trouble accommodating operating modes it hasn’t optimised for.
  - duskdozer 2mo ago
    As retirees. One explanation could be the lack of free time and resources over the course of their life prevented them from developing themselves enough to have something to do. A small parallel is that (for me) a weekend is not enough to do much more than recover from the workweek. But two weeks off is enough to recover and then do some more things. Even then, it would take more time to do things of major significance.

ThrowawayR2 2mo ago

I'd be behind Universal Basic Employment: Any able-bodied person is assigned a job that visibly benefits society, even if something simple like sweeping the sidewalk or visiting the elderly, in exchange for basic food and shelter. If you're getting something from society, you need to give something back; both the left and right agree on that.

codexjourneys 2mo ago
The trick here is, what if you would rather do something else, as in a different job or start your own company? People need the option to pursue their dreams, or it's a dystopia.
hirvi74 2mo ago
My SO's step-grandfather was born in pre-WWII Hungary. He also spent a lot of his youth and younger years in the Czech Republic before and after the Prague Spring. He was telling me stories about how the communist had an implementation similar to what you were describing. There was a strong enforcement of everyone capable of doing something did something. He said it was not uncommon to see something like two men, each with one arm, operating a broom and dust pan. One would sweep, and the other would hold the dust pan. Or something else like a person confined to a wheelchair would be stationed to call center since walking was not necessary. He said the real toxic part of the policy was that since everyone was required to do some form of work, there was also an incentive to snitch on people that were not working. Snitches were rewarded, in fact. Thus, there were instances of false accusations, extortion, etc., so it seems like it was rife with corruption and bullshit like everything humanity touches.