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Forgive my ignorance but isn't a PLC simply a computer with some GPIO ports? I.e., a Raspberry Pi could be called a PLC? Why are we talking about them as if the

by amelius 3mo ago

Forgive my ignorance but isn't a PLC simply a computer with some GPIO ports? I.e., a Raspberry Pi could be called a PLC? Why are we talking about them as if they are something else? Is it an exotic OS that makes them different?

stackghost 3mo ago
If a Raspberry Pi had industrial environment ratings and was certified hard real time, then yes it could be considered a PLC. All the ones I've encountered in the wild ran VxWorks
- Kim_Bruning 3mo ago
  > If a Raspberry Pi had industrial environment ratings and was certified hard real time, then yes it could be considered a PLC. Ostensibly yes, but so far I haven't seen anyone really use a PLC in a way that requires hard real time (so far). The cycle on eg a siemens S7-1200 is anyway much too slow for anything really exciting, and a Pi might very well be more reliable in actual practice, were it not for the very unfortunate tendency to eat SD cards. :-P (And revolution pi actually ships a hardened Pi for industrial use. So that's one way to go about it. I'm not a big fan of that brand, but it's a data-point. Meanwhile in personal experience some regular pi's left in industrial cabinets for one-off emergency monitoring purposes have managed to stay annoyingly alive over time.)
tamimio 3mo ago
Not really, sure you can use a rpi to control some hw but they are not the same, a PLC usually run rtos, is deterministic (you can predict timing) while rpi relies on linux OS and its scheduler, the PLC also uses ladder language or function block compared to rpi high level language, and obviously PLC industrial grade I/O both analog and digital that also deal with voltage noise that usually happens by field sensors, and environmentally rugged and rated to run non stop compared to rpi. Now, if you really want to use rpi as a plc, you need something like openplc or codesys as a runtime, add some HATs for I/O, and use protocols like modbus. It will be a software plc but you are missing the hardware certification and other features. Rpi is good as edge computing rather than plc, like processing vision or data logging, it’s why in drones you need the autopilot AND rpi or companion computer, each does certain functions.
- Kim_Bruning 3mo ago
  I used to think codesys on raspberry pi was pretty much the pessimal application of an ARM processor (and nothing has changed my mind so far). Here you have a chip that is famous for staying stone-cold and doing interrupts in microseconds , and instead you run it hot on a 50Hz (default) PLC loop instead.
procarch2019 3mo ago
The point I was making is that PLCs have a software stack. You have to know the software and programming languages defined in IEC 61131-3. For all intents and purposes they are just very repeatable compute in an industrial setting, but if you don’t know ladder logic or how to interface with them you might be SoL. Most don’t have any sort of web interface and if they do it operates outside the controllable logic. Same goes for shells. If you want to program it you typically have to use the vendor software.
cyberax 3mo ago
Technically it is, but in practice they often speak very obscure protocols over non-Ethernet links. Honestly, I think it's an advantage at this point. Way too much diversity to easily attack remotely.
spauldo 3mo ago
The term "PLC" is a lot more specific than "computer with some GPIO ports." No one that works with PLCs would consider a Raspberry Pi to be one. These things are walled gardens. You never see the operating system. You can only change their behavior using the vendor's software. They generally run a single program (that you write using the vendor's software) on a fixed scan cycle. They read the inputs, run your program, write the outputs, then repeat. While you're giving up the nearly infinite possibilities that an SBC gives you, the benefits more than make up for the lack of flexibility. They run (and have parts and support available) for decades. Modules are easy to diagnose and replace. An electrician who isn't a programmer can follow ladder logic and troubleshoot problems. Integrators can quickly come up to speed and understand your code. There's a reason companies will pay tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars for these things.
andyjohnson0 3mo ago
In addition to the other replies here: PLCs are ruggedised and built to survive for years in the kinds of hostile environment that are frequently found in industrial settings. And PLC vendors typically provide guaranteed support periods that are much longer (like a decade or more) than those commonly provided by conventional computer OEMs.
- procarch2019 3mo ago
  The hardware my company uses has a lifecycle of 15-20 (aka what we typically look at when we consider lifecycle of a plant). This is not meant to be the whole life of a plant, but possibly the life of the current controls. Things/people/companies change. I’ve seen some really shortsighted people rip and replace a sub-decade control system because of “bad experiences”. The industry can be great where it’s great and terrible where it’s terrible.
thyristan 3mo ago
Yes, it is. All the siblings might talk a lot about "but ruggedized!", "but realtime!", "but supported!". But in many cases, it is just a case of vendor lock-in. Ruggedized is just a casing and decoupled I/O-ports, you can get that for your Raspberry Pi. Realtime is a concern, but modern PLCs aren't really realtime anymore. Those are usually some big multicore non-realtime ARM, plus some small realtime-capable I/O-processors that do the really time-critical stuff. Or even just a CPLD to implement some trivial ladder logic cycles. Support matters, but if your PLC vendor goes bankrupt you've drained a few millions. Might be better to get something cheap where you can just stock up a few hundred replacement parts for cheaper. That's why actually, a lot of smaller PLCs are Raspberry Pi CMs now. The vendor won't tell you, but if you open them up, you'll see. And the big customers also wised up to the PLC scam and are now moving towards putting their control tasks on standard x86 hardware in the shop floor basement plus realtime ethernet with cheap I/O extenders on the shop floor. Which is why the big PLC vendors now try to sell "virtual PLC" to those customers, so they get at least a little money instead of none ;) https://www.siemens.com/en-us/products/simatic/s7-1500v/ https://www.siemens.com/en-us/products/simatic/s7-1500v/

by amelius 3mo ago

stackghost 3mo ago

If a Raspberry Pi had industrial environment ratings and was certified hard real time, then yes it could be considered a PLC. All the ones I've encountered in the wild ran VxWorks

Kim_Bruning 3mo ago
> If a Raspberry Pi had industrial environment ratings and was certified hard real time, then yes it could be considered a PLC. Ostensibly yes, but so far I haven't seen anyone really use a PLC in a way that requires hard real time (so far). The cycle on eg a siemens S7-1200 is anyway much too slow for anything really exciting, and a Pi might very well be more reliable in actual practice, were it not for the very unfortunate tendency to eat SD cards. :-P (And revolution pi actually ships a hardened Pi for industrial use. So that's one way to go about it. I'm not a big fan of that brand, but it's a data-point. Meanwhile in personal experience some regular pi's left in industrial cabinets for one-off emergency monitoring purposes have managed to stay annoyingly alive over time.)

tamimio 3mo ago

Not really, sure you can use a rpi to control some hw but they are not the same, a PLC usually run rtos, is deterministic (you can predict timing) while rpi relies on linux OS and its scheduler, the PLC also uses ladder language or function block compared to rpi high level language, and obviously PLC industrial grade I/O both analog and digital that also deal with voltage noise that usually happens by field sensors, and environmentally rugged and rated to run non stop compared to rpi. Now, if you really want to use rpi as a plc, you need something like openplc or codesys as a runtime, add some HATs for I/O, and use protocols like modbus. It will be a software plc but you are missing the hardware certification and other features. Rpi is good as edge computing rather than plc, like processing vision or data logging, it’s why in drones you need the autopilot AND rpi or companion computer, each does certain functions.

Kim_Bruning 3mo ago
I used to think codesys on raspberry pi was pretty much the pessimal application of an ARM processor (and nothing has changed my mind so far). Here you have a chip that is famous for staying stone-cold and doing interrupts in microseconds , and instead you run it hot on a 50Hz (default) PLC loop instead.

procarch2019 3mo ago

The point I was making is that PLCs have a software stack. You have to know the software and programming languages defined in IEC 61131-3. For all intents and purposes they are just very repeatable compute in an industrial setting, but if you don’t know ladder logic or how to interface with them you might be SoL. Most don’t have any sort of web interface and if they do it operates outside the controllable logic. Same goes for shells. If you want to program it you typically have to use the vendor software.

cyberax 3mo ago

Technically it is, but in practice they often speak very obscure protocols over non-Ethernet links. Honestly, I think it's an advantage at this point. Way too much diversity to easily attack remotely.

spauldo 3mo ago

The term "PLC" is a lot more specific than "computer with some GPIO ports." No one that works with PLCs would consider a Raspberry Pi to be one. These things are walled gardens. You never see the operating system. You can only change their behavior using the vendor's software. They generally run a single program (that you write using the vendor's software) on a fixed scan cycle. They read the inputs, run your program, write the outputs, then repeat. While you're giving up the nearly infinite possibilities that an SBC gives you, the benefits more than make up for the lack of flexibility. They run (and have parts and support available) for decades. Modules are easy to diagnose and replace. An electrician who isn't a programmer can follow ladder logic and troubleshoot problems. Integrators can quickly come up to speed and understand your code. There's a reason companies will pay tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars for these things.

andyjohnson0 3mo ago

In addition to the other replies here: PLCs are ruggedised and built to survive for years in the kinds of hostile environment that are frequently found in industrial settings. And PLC vendors typically provide guaranteed support periods that are much longer (like a decade or more) than those commonly provided by conventional computer OEMs.

procarch2019 3mo ago
The hardware my company uses has a lifecycle of 15-20 (aka what we typically look at when we consider lifecycle of a plant). This is not meant to be the whole life of a plant, but possibly the life of the current controls. Things/people/companies change. I’ve seen some really shortsighted people rip and replace a sub-decade control system because of “bad experiences”. The industry can be great where it’s great and terrible where it’s terrible.

thyristan 3mo ago

Yes, it is. All the siblings might talk a lot about "but ruggedized!", "but realtime!", "but supported!". But in many cases, it is just a case of vendor lock-in. Ruggedized is just a casing and decoupled I/O-ports, you can get that for your Raspberry Pi. Realtime is a concern, but modern PLCs aren't really realtime anymore. Those are usually some big multicore non-realtime ARM, plus some small realtime-capable I/O-processors that do the really time-critical stuff. Or even just a CPLD to implement some trivial ladder logic cycles. Support matters, but if your PLC vendor goes bankrupt you've drained a few millions. Might be better to get something cheap where you can just stock up a few hundred replacement parts for cheaper. That's why actually, a lot of smaller PLCs are Raspberry Pi CMs now. The vendor won't tell you, but if you open them up, you'll see. And the big customers also wised up to the PLC scam and are now moving towards putting their control tasks on standard x86 hardware in the shop floor basement plus realtime ethernet with cheap I/O extenders on the shop floor. Which is why the big PLC vendors now try to sell "virtual PLC" to those customers, so they get at least a little money instead of none ;) https://www.siemens.com/en-us/products/simatic/s7-1500v/ https://www.siemens.com/en-us/products/simatic/s7-1500v/