8 ms·

There are too many interested parties involved in the energy sector. The only common sense I can think of is solar+storage at the single building level and inte

There are too many interested parties involved in the energy sector. The only common sense I can think of is solar+storage at the single building level and interconnected through smart grids with neighbours. But that leaves out the government and all those interested parties so we're never ever getting that.

jtbayly 2mo ago
And in the winter in the North people are just supposed to freeze?
- WillAdams 2mo ago
  Supplement w/ geothermal?
  - seb1204 2mo ago
    Yes, this
  - perpetuallunch 2mo ago
    Geothermal works in enough areas (geographies) for it to be an entertaining talking point in niche forums like this one. But not much else. Earth is an incredibly poor heat conductor, as evidenced by the fact that you don’t have to dig very far, maybe a foot or four, and it’s a fairly constant 14 degrees C, and yet the core is molten lava (rock) and has been that way for billions of years predominantly from latent heat from the planets formation. So you have to be very careful with heat exchange, lest you exceed the ability of the earth to conduct heat through the rock surrounding the boreholes. Drilling deep boreholes is difficult as the rock becomes more like plasticine as it approaches temperatures where usefully higher temperatures occur.
    - defrost 2mo ago
      "Artificial" geothermal works well enough to store energy from sunlight months for use during colder months. Artificial in the sense of using solar energy (direct or electric) to heat mass insulated by earth and later extracting that heat to use (directly in district heating, or indirectly via heat -> electric conversion).
      - perpetuallunch 2mo ago
        Show me an example where this is being used in the real word, at scale, in a cost effective manner. It’s not even a good idea. Water has a greater capacity to store heat than rocks and dirt.
        anenefan 2mo ago
        I'm obviously going to ignore the conditional goal posts at scale and cost effective ... burgeoning technology does not typically land with all the problems ironed out or have economy of scale. I used my searchfoo and Sage Industries lands in more of the top results [1] [2] (may require careful attention to distinguish between natural and artificial geothermal) As well as an interview [youtube] There's obviously different methods that have been employed / tried by other companies given [3] which outlines different methods of storage also includes some simple graphics ... [1] https://www.aveva.com/en/our-industrial-life/type/article/turning-abandoned-oil-wells-into-energy-storage/ https://www.aveva.com/en/our-industrial-life/type/article/tu... [2] https://new.abb.com/news/detail/123160/abb-and-sage-geosystems-unearth-geothermal-energy-opportunities https://new.abb.com/news/detail/123160/abb-and-sage-geosyste... [youtube] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSt-MiiX0Fg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSt-MiiX0Fg (Transmission 43 mins Geothermal: Turning Oil Wells Into Energy Storage - Sage Geosystems) [podcast] [3] https://www.energy.gov/hgeo/geothermal/geothermal-energy-storage https://www.energy.gov/hgeo/geothermal/geothermal-energy-sto...
        defrost 2mo ago
        > real word, at scale, in a cost effective manner. - https://web.archive.org/web/20151208232728/http://ing.dk/artikel/verdens-stoerste-damvarmelager-indviet-i-vojens-176776 https://web.archive.org/web/20151208232728/http://ing.dk/art... from [2015 - now( ... (still operating) for one example. > Water has a greater capacity to store heat than rocks and dirt. Weirdly all three fall under the description used ( "mass" ) and yet none of the three you mentioned are molten salt or silicon which perform even better than water. If the point you're making is that you've made little effort to think this through or look to where this has been used, is being used, or at pilot plants going to longer time scales then congratulations, you've convinced me.
- PowerElectronix 2mo ago
  Solar would produce enough power in winter. Germany is europe's top solar energy producer and is at a latitude similar to Alaska.
  - eigenspace 2mo ago
    The very very northern tip of Germany reaches almost as far north as the southernmost tip of the Alaskan panhandle, but most of Germany is more like mid-south Canada on a latitude basis. Northern Germany is much more specialized into wind power, and the south is more solar intensive (though solar is more evenly spread throughout the country than Wind, thanks to ease of installation, and the fact that it still produces tonnes of electricity in the summer). Solar should be built in Alaska, but wind and hydro is what should be actively subsidized and supported by the government. The market can take care of solar penetration in Alaska if you let it.
    - cycomanic 2mo ago
      One additional tidbit of info. While the northern coast in Germany has certainly more wind, a reason why wind falls off so strongly towards the south, are the policies of the CSU party in Bavaria, which though not quite as bad as trump has been running Anti-Wind policies and making wind installations extremely difficult to build.
  - perpetuallunch 2mo ago
    At what cost? Doesn’t Germany now have some of the most costly electricity in the OECD? For a while there we kept hearing about plug in balcony solar in Germany. Electricity generation used to be a solved problem, now it’s so bad people want to connect solar on their apartment balcony. And we’re supposed to believe this is progress?
    - bryanlarsen 2mo ago
      Germany's high electricity prices are set by the cost of imported LNG.
- whizzter 2mo ago
  The energy mix for electricity in Sweden, Norway and Finland is mostly made up of hydro+nuclear+wind, especially wind and hydro complements each other very well since hydro is very much on-demand and can cover for most temporary wind shortfalls. Driving through my childhood area up north a few weeks back I was also surprised by the amount of solar going up, for comparison this is an area _north of_ Anchorage/Alaska with less than 3 hours of sun around Christmas, but already by late January (usually the coldest period of the year) there is over 6 hours of sun a day (so with high pressure cold peaks with less wind, the 6 hours probably eases the power bill quite a bit). An interesting fact about those solar installations was that the panels were mounted almost vertically (probably to avoid being snowed over but also useful in the winter since the sun mostly just shines from the south anyhow).
- mapontosevenths 2mo ago
  North Americans mostly do not use electricity for heat in the winter. Around 60% use natural gas with forced air furnaces. Something closer to 80% have the option, but 20% don't bother to use it. Some of the deep south get by with electric heat, but they aren't in places where the cold is a typically a legitimate danger to health and safety.
  - ricardobayes 2mo ago
    I find something very refreshing in this, reading from Europe where we get told "gas" is the big bad, even threatening to make condensing gas boilers illegal from time to time [0], despite over 95% of homes (in the UK) being heated by this method. That said most of Europe doesn't heat or cool adequately, Spain and Portugal barely heat their homes in winter and boy it gets cold with 41F/5C nights. Then Germany/Switzerland refuse to use A/C even though the summers get to 95F/35C. Just a few days ago a friend told me he went to the doctor and the doctor passed out during examination from the heat. ps. Not sure why it's downvoted, I think people read something into my comment that I didn't want to express. [0]: https://www.edfenergy.com/heating/advice/uk-boiler-ban https://www.edfenergy.com/heating/advice/uk-boiler-ban
    - actionfromafar 2mo ago
      Europe has unlimited wind, not unlimited gas. Electrification of most things is just a matter of time. Gas for heating is wasteful. I think AC will get very popular eventually once the stragglers realize that these are not unusual one-off warm summers, but is a result of global warming.
    - nicoburns 2mo ago
      > Reading from Europe where we get told "gas" is the big bad, even threatening to make condensing gas boilers illegal from time to time Long-term this is true, and it makes sense to ban gas boilers (potentially with some exceptions): electric heat is significantly more efficient, and can run on renewable energy. But that requires a big investment in infrastructure build-out (heat pumps) which will take decades, and we definitely need to be careful that we handle the transition without screwing people over.
carlosjobim 2mo ago
That leaves a lot of free energy sources untapped - especially hydro.
- PowerElectronix 2mo ago
  If you can set up a hydro/pump dam without wrecking the ecosystem and don't need handouts to function, I'm all for it.
  - rob74 2mo ago
    As opposed to fossil fuels, which are great for ecosystems, both locally and globally?
    - smolder 2mo ago
      Right. Gentle reminder that tuna has dangerous amounts of mercury in it specifically because of humans burning coal, not because the ocean was always so polluted.
  - happosai 2mo ago
    People complaining about renewal electricity production with hydro/pump dams while ignoring mountaintop removal of Appalachian mountains for coal...
    - realreality 2mo ago
      Why not complain about both? Industrial civilization is inherently unsustainable, no matter how you try to power it.
  - cucumber3732842 2mo ago
    Every time they do that you just redefine wrecking. First it was the fish ladders. Then it was a bunch of whining about how reducing the water level variation on the river is bad (particularly illustrative because this is the exact opposite logic your ilk uses when talking stormwater). Lord knows what the complaint is these days. Why don't you just be honest and say "no"
windyoil 2mo ago
While I do not know if the following is relevant for the Carolina Long Bay area, and while neither Republicans nor Democrats can be trusted, it is not without precedent for offshore wind turbine projects to be disallowed due to radar concerns. https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2024/11/11/why-sweden-nixed-new-wind-farms-for-fear-of-missing-russian-missiles/ https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2024/11/11/why-swe... > Why Sweden nixed new wind farms for fear of missing Russian missiles > BERLIN — Sweden’s government this month blocked the construction of 13 offshore wind farms over concerns that they would shorten the country’s early-warning window for a Russian missile attack. > ... > That is because wind farms can interact with radar signals, reducing the quality of the situational air picture or even outright blocking out parts of the sky. Other possibilities than radar concerns is that the stopping of the project here hinders corruption, or is corrupt itself, or it moves corruption around (as in both the old project and new project was corrupt). Whatever the case, a way to avoid corruption would be helpful. Perhaps like making it market-driven and contest-driven as much as possible. Solar and wind is already significantly cost-efficient and market-driven despite their significant drawbacks like not producing energy consistently and on demand. If the main challenge is creating domestic production of wind turbines and solar cells instead of being reliant on other countries and without state support ending up being mired in corruption, perhaps some bidding and contract process that moves the financial risk onto private companies, such that the government never pays in advance, could work. I agree with posts here saying that a mosaic or plethora of energy sources should be used. Wind, solar, fossile, nuclear (for big countries like the USA at least), geothermal, etc. In general, energy companies should not be focused on just one kind, but lots of kinds.
- Y-bar 2mo ago
  Wind power is a purely commercial enterprise which only requires state support for permissions to build and permissions to connect to the grid. There is no issue about state support for manufacturing of equipment. Living here where this happens. They are stopping it for two reasons: First on a national level they want to concentrate on their renewed push towards building new nuclear power reactors, means wind has to take second fiddle: https://www.government.se/press-releases/2026/06/sweden-takes-next-major-step-towards-new-nuclear-power/ https://www.government.se/press-releases/2026/06/sweden-take... Second, on a local level, the far-right party "SD" is voting agaisnt wind power in 96% of the cases. As presented here, the national government is declining 84% of all requests of requests to build wind power, ad on the local level the right wing parties vetoed wind power at a rate of 64-92%: https://research.chalmers.se/publication/?created=true&id=09b1c3fb-6a4f-4387-9886-40e88d1fb643 https://research.chalmers.se/publication/?created=true&id=09...
friendzis 2mo ago
> The only common sense I can think of is solar+storage Even in Texas/California photovoltaic output in the winter is measly, anywhere more to the north and it's effectively inexistent. Solar+storage requires massive overprovisioning, to the level that it's cheaper to burn literal money. Windmill farm outputs tend to dip during summer and peak over winter. With a given minimum power output windmills + photovoltaics + storage is massively cheaper per unit of yearly energy. Of course, if you value any semblance of network stability. Solar+storage is clear path towards either guaranteeing reliance on fossils or brownouts. The smart energy meter you got that encourages running the washing machine during cheap hours will ensure that you voluntarily go dark during undersupply as the cost will skyrocket.
- swiftcoder 2mo ago
  > Even in Texas/California photovoltaic output in the winter is measly, anywhere more to the north and it's effectively inexistent. The northernmost point in Texas would be at the extreme southern edge of Europe. The northernmost point of California is level with the sunny French Riviera. Hell, even frozen Minnesota has about the same solar potential as northern Spain... If Europe can make solar work, so can the states (assuming a similar level of investment)
  - friendzis 2mo ago
    > If Europe can make solar work Can you cite a region in Europe that physically independently covers its energy needs with solar+storage alone? </snark> Stress on physical. Even if some regions claim renewables fully covering energy needs, that's at best on accounting level, those regions are still fully dependent on power import/export and simply could not function in an island mode for any extended period of time without at the very least brownouts. Quite importantly, it's always renewables, not solar. The dispatchability problem is a real pain. Pool together wind + solar + hydro and the variability in power (!) output drops to levels possible to tame with realistic grid-scale storage sizes. I am not talking about intra-day balancing here. It's the yearly cycle that comes to bite you. In my corner of Europe, if I wanted to go completely off-grid with solar+storage I would need storage well into the mid single-digit MEGA watt-hours, for the house needs (HVAC and DHW taking the lion's share) alone. That's laughably unrealistic. > The northernmost point of California is level with the sunny French Riviera. Hell, even frozen Minnesota has about the same solar potential as northern Spain... Yes, the southern states could probably make do with something like 3-4x overprovisioning, but that's still massive. So massive that any sort of windmill capability will outcompete any sort of COTS storage.
NuclearPM 2mo ago
That’s not a good idea. Millions would be left without electricity.
- sdellis 2mo ago
  It's a great idea if we subsidize it the way that fossil fuels are subsidized.
  - OroPla 2mo ago
    Renewables are great, but they cannot sustain current power needs alone. Both solar and wind also have the problem that they cannot generate power 24/7. So at times where they are able they generate a lot of excess power that cannot be stored at that scale and at times where they cannot generate power there are shortages. Even if they could operate 24/7 it would still not be enough power to satisfy current demand. Then there's the waste they create once parts need to be replaced, which is much more frequent than non renewables. It's all very messy and there is no silver bullet.
perpetuallunch 2mo ago
Sure. But at the scale of a city or state one home uses close enough to zero power that it being a net user or net producer of electricity is irrelevant. Scale up to tens of thousands of homes and suddenly you need an organising body approximating government to manage those homes being net users or net producers from moment to moment. Additionally most cities tend to want to have commercial and industrial users of electricity, and energy more broadly. Your home solar & battery does approximately nothing to help them, and if any of the data is to be believed has resulted in electricity prices increasing for everyone.

jtbayly 2mo ago

And in the winter in the North people are just supposed to freeze?

WillAdams 2mo ago
Supplement w/ geothermal?
- seb1204 2mo ago
  Yes, this
- perpetuallunch 2mo ago
  Geothermal works in enough areas (geographies) for it to be an entertaining talking point in niche forums like this one. But not much else. Earth is an incredibly poor heat conductor, as evidenced by the fact that you don’t have to dig very far, maybe a foot or four, and it’s a fairly constant 14 degrees C, and yet the core is molten lava (rock) and has been that way for billions of years predominantly from latent heat from the planets formation. So you have to be very careful with heat exchange, lest you exceed the ability of the earth to conduct heat through the rock surrounding the boreholes. Drilling deep boreholes is difficult as the rock becomes more like plasticine as it approaches temperatures where usefully higher temperatures occur.
  - defrost 2mo ago
    "Artificial" geothermal works well enough to store energy from sunlight months for use during colder months. Artificial in the sense of using solar energy (direct or electric) to heat mass insulated by earth and later extracting that heat to use (directly in district heating, or indirectly via heat -> electric conversion).
    - perpetuallunch 2mo ago
      Show me an example where this is being used in the real word, at scale, in a cost effective manner. It’s not even a good idea. Water has a greater capacity to store heat than rocks and dirt.
      - anenefan 2mo ago
        I'm obviously going to ignore the conditional goal posts at scale and cost effective ... burgeoning technology does not typically land with all the problems ironed out or have economy of scale. I used my searchfoo and Sage Industries lands in more of the top results [1] [2] (may require careful attention to distinguish between natural and artificial geothermal) As well as an interview [youtube] There's obviously different methods that have been employed / tried by other companies given [3] which outlines different methods of storage also includes some simple graphics ... [1] https://www.aveva.com/en/our-industrial-life/type/article/turning-abandoned-oil-wells-into-energy-storage/ https://www.aveva.com/en/our-industrial-life/type/article/tu... [2] https://new.abb.com/news/detail/123160/abb-and-sage-geosystems-unearth-geothermal-energy-opportunities https://new.abb.com/news/detail/123160/abb-and-sage-geosyste... [youtube] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSt-MiiX0Fg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSt-MiiX0Fg (Transmission 43 mins Geothermal: Turning Oil Wells Into Energy Storage - Sage Geosystems) [podcast] [3] https://www.energy.gov/hgeo/geothermal/geothermal-energy-storage https://www.energy.gov/hgeo/geothermal/geothermal-energy-sto...
      - defrost 2mo ago
        > real word, at scale, in a cost effective manner. - https://web.archive.org/web/20151208232728/http://ing.dk/artikel/verdens-stoerste-damvarmelager-indviet-i-vojens-176776 https://web.archive.org/web/20151208232728/http://ing.dk/art... from [2015 - now( ... (still operating) for one example. > Water has a greater capacity to store heat than rocks and dirt. Weirdly all three fall under the description used ( "mass" ) and yet none of the three you mentioned are molten salt or silicon which perform even better than water. If the point you're making is that you've made little effort to think this through or look to where this has been used, is being used, or at pilot plants going to longer time scales then congratulations, you've convinced me.
PowerElectronix 2mo ago
Solar would produce enough power in winter. Germany is europe's top solar energy producer and is at a latitude similar to Alaska.
- eigenspace 2mo ago
  The very very northern tip of Germany reaches almost as far north as the southernmost tip of the Alaskan panhandle, but most of Germany is more like mid-south Canada on a latitude basis. Northern Germany is much more specialized into wind power, and the south is more solar intensive (though solar is more evenly spread throughout the country than Wind, thanks to ease of installation, and the fact that it still produces tonnes of electricity in the summer). Solar should be built in Alaska, but wind and hydro is what should be actively subsidized and supported by the government. The market can take care of solar penetration in Alaska if you let it.
  - cycomanic 2mo ago
    One additional tidbit of info. While the northern coast in Germany has certainly more wind, a reason why wind falls off so strongly towards the south, are the policies of the CSU party in Bavaria, which though not quite as bad as trump has been running Anti-Wind policies and making wind installations extremely difficult to build.
- perpetuallunch 2mo ago
  At what cost? Doesn’t Germany now have some of the most costly electricity in the OECD? For a while there we kept hearing about plug in balcony solar in Germany. Electricity generation used to be a solved problem, now it’s so bad people want to connect solar on their apartment balcony. And we’re supposed to believe this is progress?
  - bryanlarsen 2mo ago
    Germany's high electricity prices are set by the cost of imported LNG.
whizzter 2mo ago
The energy mix for electricity in Sweden, Norway and Finland is mostly made up of hydro+nuclear+wind, especially wind and hydro complements each other very well since hydro is very much on-demand and can cover for most temporary wind shortfalls. Driving through my childhood area up north a few weeks back I was also surprised by the amount of solar going up, for comparison this is an area _north of_ Anchorage/Alaska with less than 3 hours of sun around Christmas, but already by late January (usually the coldest period of the year) there is over 6 hours of sun a day (so with high pressure cold peaks with less wind, the 6 hours probably eases the power bill quite a bit). An interesting fact about those solar installations was that the panels were mounted almost vertically (probably to avoid being snowed over but also useful in the winter since the sun mostly just shines from the south anyhow).
mapontosevenths 2mo ago
North Americans mostly do not use electricity for heat in the winter. Around 60% use natural gas with forced air furnaces. Something closer to 80% have the option, but 20% don't bother to use it. Some of the deep south get by with electric heat, but they aren't in places where the cold is a typically a legitimate danger to health and safety.
- ricardobayes 2mo ago
  I find something very refreshing in this, reading from Europe where we get told "gas" is the big bad, even threatening to make condensing gas boilers illegal from time to time [0], despite over 95% of homes (in the UK) being heated by this method. That said most of Europe doesn't heat or cool adequately, Spain and Portugal barely heat their homes in winter and boy it gets cold with 41F/5C nights. Then Germany/Switzerland refuse to use A/C even though the summers get to 95F/35C. Just a few days ago a friend told me he went to the doctor and the doctor passed out during examination from the heat. ps. Not sure why it's downvoted, I think people read something into my comment that I didn't want to express. [0]: https://www.edfenergy.com/heating/advice/uk-boiler-ban https://www.edfenergy.com/heating/advice/uk-boiler-ban
  - actionfromafar 2mo ago
    Europe has unlimited wind, not unlimited gas. Electrification of most things is just a matter of time. Gas for heating is wasteful. I think AC will get very popular eventually once the stragglers realize that these are not unusual one-off warm summers, but is a result of global warming.
  - nicoburns 2mo ago
    > Reading from Europe where we get told "gas" is the big bad, even threatening to make condensing gas boilers illegal from time to time Long-term this is true, and it makes sense to ban gas boilers (potentially with some exceptions): electric heat is significantly more efficient, and can run on renewable energy. But that requires a big investment in infrastructure build-out (heat pumps) which will take decades, and we definitely need to be careful that we handle the transition without screwing people over.

carlosjobim 2mo ago

That leaves a lot of free energy sources untapped - especially hydro.

PowerElectronix 2mo ago
If you can set up a hydro/pump dam without wrecking the ecosystem and don't need handouts to function, I'm all for it.
- rob74 2mo ago
  As opposed to fossil fuels, which are great for ecosystems, both locally and globally?
  - smolder 2mo ago
    Right. Gentle reminder that tuna has dangerous amounts of mercury in it specifically because of humans burning coal, not because the ocean was always so polluted.
- happosai 2mo ago
  People complaining about renewal electricity production with hydro/pump dams while ignoring mountaintop removal of Appalachian mountains for coal...
  - realreality 2mo ago
    Why not complain about both? Industrial civilization is inherently unsustainable, no matter how you try to power it.
- cucumber3732842 2mo ago
  Every time they do that you just redefine wrecking. First it was the fish ladders. Then it was a bunch of whining about how reducing the water level variation on the river is bad (particularly illustrative because this is the exact opposite logic your ilk uses when talking stormwater). Lord knows what the complaint is these days. Why don't you just be honest and say "no"

windyoil 2mo ago

While I do not know if the following is relevant for the Carolina Long Bay area, and while neither Republicans nor Democrats can be trusted, it is not without precedent for offshore wind turbine projects to be disallowed due to radar concerns. https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2024/11/11/why-sweden-nixed-new-wind-farms-for-fear-of-missing-russian-missiles/ https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2024/11/11/why-swe... > Why Sweden nixed new wind farms for fear of missing Russian missiles > BERLIN — Sweden’s government this month blocked the construction of 13 offshore wind farms over concerns that they would shorten the country’s early-warning window for a Russian missile attack. > ... > That is because wind farms can interact with radar signals, reducing the quality of the situational air picture or even outright blocking out parts of the sky. Other possibilities than radar concerns is that the stopping of the project here hinders corruption, or is corrupt itself, or it moves corruption around (as in both the old project and new project was corrupt). Whatever the case, a way to avoid corruption would be helpful. Perhaps like making it market-driven and contest-driven as much as possible. Solar and wind is already significantly cost-efficient and market-driven despite their significant drawbacks like not producing energy consistently and on demand. If the main challenge is creating domestic production of wind turbines and solar cells instead of being reliant on other countries and without state support ending up being mired in corruption, perhaps some bidding and contract process that moves the financial risk onto private companies, such that the government never pays in advance, could work. I agree with posts here saying that a mosaic or plethora of energy sources should be used. Wind, solar, fossile, nuclear (for big countries like the USA at least), geothermal, etc. In general, energy companies should not be focused on just one kind, but lots of kinds.

Y-bar 2mo ago
Wind power is a purely commercial enterprise which only requires state support for permissions to build and permissions to connect to the grid. There is no issue about state support for manufacturing of equipment. Living here where this happens. They are stopping it for two reasons: First on a national level they want to concentrate on their renewed push towards building new nuclear power reactors, means wind has to take second fiddle: https://www.government.se/press-releases/2026/06/sweden-takes-next-major-step-towards-new-nuclear-power/ https://www.government.se/press-releases/2026/06/sweden-take... Second, on a local level, the far-right party "SD" is voting agaisnt wind power in 96% of the cases. As presented here, the national government is declining 84% of all requests of requests to build wind power, ad on the local level the right wing parties vetoed wind power at a rate of 64-92%: https://research.chalmers.se/publication/?created=true&id=09b1c3fb-6a4f-4387-9886-40e88d1fb643 https://research.chalmers.se/publication/?created=true&id=09...

friendzis 2mo ago

> The only common sense I can think of is solar+storage Even in Texas/California photovoltaic output in the winter is measly, anywhere more to the north and it's effectively inexistent. Solar+storage requires massive overprovisioning, to the level that it's cheaper to burn literal money. Windmill farm outputs tend to dip during summer and peak over winter. With a given minimum power output windmills + photovoltaics + storage is massively cheaper per unit of yearly energy. Of course, if you value any semblance of network stability. Solar+storage is clear path towards either guaranteeing reliance on fossils or brownouts. The smart energy meter you got that encourages running the washing machine during cheap hours will ensure that you voluntarily go dark during undersupply as the cost will skyrocket.

swiftcoder 2mo ago
> Even in Texas/California photovoltaic output in the winter is measly, anywhere more to the north and it's effectively inexistent. The northernmost point in Texas would be at the extreme southern edge of Europe. The northernmost point of California is level with the sunny French Riviera. Hell, even frozen Minnesota has about the same solar potential as northern Spain... If Europe can make solar work, so can the states (assuming a similar level of investment)
- friendzis 2mo ago
  > If Europe can make solar work Can you cite a region in Europe that physically independently covers its energy needs with solar+storage alone? </snark> Stress on physical. Even if some regions claim renewables fully covering energy needs, that's at best on accounting level, those regions are still fully dependent on power import/export and simply could not function in an island mode for any extended period of time without at the very least brownouts. Quite importantly, it's always renewables, not solar. The dispatchability problem is a real pain. Pool together wind + solar + hydro and the variability in power (!) output drops to levels possible to tame with realistic grid-scale storage sizes. I am not talking about intra-day balancing here. It's the yearly cycle that comes to bite you. In my corner of Europe, if I wanted to go completely off-grid with solar+storage I would need storage well into the mid single-digit MEGA watt-hours, for the house needs (HVAC and DHW taking the lion's share) alone. That's laughably unrealistic. > The northernmost point of California is level with the sunny French Riviera. Hell, even frozen Minnesota has about the same solar potential as northern Spain... Yes, the southern states could probably make do with something like 3-4x overprovisioning, but that's still massive. So massive that any sort of windmill capability will outcompete any sort of COTS storage.

NuclearPM 2mo ago

That’s not a good idea. Millions would be left without electricity.

sdellis 2mo ago
It's a great idea if we subsidize it the way that fossil fuels are subsidized.
- OroPla 2mo ago
  Renewables are great, but they cannot sustain current power needs alone. Both solar and wind also have the problem that they cannot generate power 24/7. So at times where they are able they generate a lot of excess power that cannot be stored at that scale and at times where they cannot generate power there are shortages. Even if they could operate 24/7 it would still not be enough power to satisfy current demand. Then there's the waste they create once parts need to be replaced, which is much more frequent than non renewables. It's all very messy and there is no silver bullet.

perpetuallunch 2mo ago

Sure. But at the scale of a city or state one home uses close enough to zero power that it being a net user or net producer of electricity is irrelevant. Scale up to tens of thousands of homes and suddenly you need an organising body approximating government to manage those homes being net users or net producers from moment to moment. Additionally most cities tend to want to have commercial and industrial users of electricity, and energy more broadly. Your home solar & battery does approximately nothing to help them, and if any of the data is to be believed has resulted in electricity prices increasing for everyone.