3 ms·

This is essentially a story about front-line traditional desktop support/sysadmins at a public university. It's not going to be the same story at much higher p

This is essentially a story about front-line traditional desktop support/sysadmins at a public university. It's not going to be the same story at much higher paid shops where workers often have equity, good benefits, and the market has provided access to other jobs if you lose yours (in my experience, there are still shortages of qualified and competent engineers). I would like a different method to deal with the pitfalls, but the politics, drama, overhead, and costs of unionization just don't interest me. I'm not interested in being at one job for life.

mikojan 2mo ago
Financial equity, benefits and opportunities at other companies in my experience are not the determining factors for tech workers. Lack of or loss of self-determination and self-governance are. The tech workers who are unionized that I know didn't join for financial gain because there is none (except for a few who are bad at bargaining). They joined to exert control over their workplaces and help build companies they can be proud of.
- johnnyanmac 2mo ago
  > (except for a few who are bad at bargaining) Was this really necessary?
  - mikojan 2mo ago
    What do you mean? What is the problem with that statement?
    - johnnyanmac 2mo ago
      I don't like the implication that there are people who join a union because they are bad at their job. As you see in these comments that is still a prevailing sentiment despite the industry here laying off millions in the last few years with no rhyme nor reason. And despite soaring profits (so these aren't struggling companies who need to let go of talent). Apparently, if you can't make it on your own, you have to lean on unions as a crutch that lets you coast
      - mikojan 2mo ago
        > I don't like the implication that there are people who join a union because they are bad at their job. What are you talking about? I never insinuated anything like that.
popalchemist 2mo ago
Being in a union isn't about being at one job for life. I'm a member of IATSE (the huge mega-union behind thousands of technical job titles/positions in the entertainment industry, such as film editors, sound mixers, etc; really it's many mini-unions acting as one.) There is really no connection to belonging to a union and being stuck in one job title, in fact the incentives are set up in the opposite direction - the greater the group of people the union represents, the more mobility (and many other benefits) its members get. You should revist your stance on unions and start by reading up on how they work and what benefits they confer. Assuming you are not in the 1%, a union almost certianly would benefit you. It is a way of equalizing the playing field when the interests of BIG capital conflict with the quality of life and meaningful human experience of individuals.
- hylaride 2mo ago
  > You should revist your stance on unions and start by reading up on how they work and what benefits they confer. Assuming you are not in the 1%, a union almost certianly would benefit you. It is a way of equalizing the playing field when the interests of BIG capital conflict with the quality of life and meaningful human experience of individuals. I already have that agency. If I wanted money, I'd have long ago worked for a FAANG. I didn't because I wanted something else. I enjoy working at startups and small to medium sized firms for the challenge and flexibility in all matter of things I get to work on. I have shifted my career from being a sysadmin/netadmin, to devops, to development and it just involved getting involved at places I've worked at. There was no need for licensing, meeting requirements, etc. If I felt I didn't have any of that agency, I'd likely feel differently about it. But I just don't see what any union (small or large) is going to do for me unless I was in a jurisdiction where they provided extra services like healthcare or other universal benefits.
- ydlr 2mo ago
  IATSE membership helps with job mobility because they enjoy a carve-out allowing sectorial bargaining. It would be illegal in US for a union to try to organize the software industry along the same lines.
  - 2mo ago
Melatonic 2mo ago
If anything a union would aid job mobility. And theres no reason you cant still individually negotiate and receive equity if you are in a union.
- ThrowawayR2 2mo ago
  IIRC union seniority is tied to the current employer. Move to another employer and all your seniority and the perks that go with it are gone so union members avoid it. No mobility for you.
  - Melatonic 2mo ago
    I have not seen that to be the case. Usually the opposite. You have x years of seniority/experience and then you hit a minimum base pay for your new employer.
  - preg_match 2mo ago
    Maybe but don't we want, overall, more seniority in most places? Most software shops struggle because their executives are extremely short-term focused, so they cycle employees at an extreme rate to chase very temporary highs of payroll savings. But engineers are actually not fungible. 99% of the time, the graybeard is going to run circles around the 10x engineer unicorn you just hired. And that 10x engineer unicorn is gonna be gone in one year's time, because they can do that.
- greyface- 2mo ago
  The National Labor Relations Act prohibits covered employers from negotiating directly with employees.
  - johnnyanmac 2mo ago
    Yet they do it indirectly all the time to bust unions. That's not really a barrier.
    - greyface- 2mo ago
johnnyanmac 2mo ago
>the politics, drama, overhead, and costs of unionization just don't interest me. Any collection of people has politics, drama, and overhead. That's the nature of collaboration with humans. So this really doesn't' say much to me besides "I got mine and don't see a need to rely on others (yet)"

mikojan 2mo ago

Financial equity, benefits and opportunities at other companies in my experience are not the determining factors for tech workers. Lack of or loss of self-determination and self-governance are. The tech workers who are unionized that I know didn't join for financial gain because there is none (except for a few who are bad at bargaining). They joined to exert control over their workplaces and help build companies they can be proud of.

johnnyanmac 2mo ago
> (except for a few who are bad at bargaining) Was this really necessary?
- mikojan 2mo ago
  What do you mean? What is the problem with that statement?
  - johnnyanmac 2mo ago
    I don't like the implication that there are people who join a union because they are bad at their job. As you see in these comments that is still a prevailing sentiment despite the industry here laying off millions in the last few years with no rhyme nor reason. And despite soaring profits (so these aren't struggling companies who need to let go of talent). Apparently, if you can't make it on your own, you have to lean on unions as a crutch that lets you coast
    - mikojan 2mo ago
      > I don't like the implication that there are people who join a union because they are bad at their job. What are you talking about? I never insinuated anything like that.

popalchemist 2mo ago

Being in a union isn't about being at one job for life. I'm a member of IATSE (the huge mega-union behind thousands of technical job titles/positions in the entertainment industry, such as film editors, sound mixers, etc; really it's many mini-unions acting as one.) There is really no connection to belonging to a union and being stuck in one job title, in fact the incentives are set up in the opposite direction - the greater the group of people the union represents, the more mobility (and many other benefits) its members get. You should revist your stance on unions and start by reading up on how they work and what benefits they confer. Assuming you are not in the 1%, a union almost certianly would benefit you. It is a way of equalizing the playing field when the interests of BIG capital conflict with the quality of life and meaningful human experience of individuals.

hylaride 2mo ago
> You should revist your stance on unions and start by reading up on how they work and what benefits they confer. Assuming you are not in the 1%, a union almost certianly would benefit you. It is a way of equalizing the playing field when the interests of BIG capital conflict with the quality of life and meaningful human experience of individuals. I already have that agency. If I wanted money, I'd have long ago worked for a FAANG. I didn't because I wanted something else. I enjoy working at startups and small to medium sized firms for the challenge and flexibility in all matter of things I get to work on. I have shifted my career from being a sysadmin/netadmin, to devops, to development and it just involved getting involved at places I've worked at. There was no need for licensing, meeting requirements, etc. If I felt I didn't have any of that agency, I'd likely feel differently about it. But I just don't see what any union (small or large) is going to do for me unless I was in a jurisdiction where they provided extra services like healthcare or other universal benefits.
ydlr 2mo ago
IATSE membership helps with job mobility because they enjoy a carve-out allowing sectorial bargaining. It would be illegal in US for a union to try to organize the software industry along the same lines.
- 2mo ago

Melatonic 2mo ago

If anything a union would aid job mobility. And theres no reason you cant still individually negotiate and receive equity if you are in a union.

ThrowawayR2 2mo ago
IIRC union seniority is tied to the current employer. Move to another employer and all your seniority and the perks that go with it are gone so union members avoid it. No mobility for you.
- Melatonic 2mo ago
  I have not seen that to be the case. Usually the opposite. You have x years of seniority/experience and then you hit a minimum base pay for your new employer.
- preg_match 2mo ago
  Maybe but don't we want, overall, more seniority in most places? Most software shops struggle because their executives are extremely short-term focused, so they cycle employees at an extreme rate to chase very temporary highs of payroll savings. But engineers are actually not fungible. 99% of the time, the graybeard is going to run circles around the 10x engineer unicorn you just hired. And that 10x engineer unicorn is gonna be gone in one year's time, because they can do that.
greyface- 2mo ago
The National Labor Relations Act prohibits covered employers from negotiating directly with employees.
- johnnyanmac 2mo ago
  Yet they do it indirectly all the time to bust unions. That's not really a barrier.
  - greyface- 2mo ago

johnnyanmac 2mo ago

>the politics, drama, overhead, and costs of unionization just don't interest me. Any collection of people has politics, drama, and overhead. That's the nature of collaboration with humans. So this really doesn't' say much to me besides "I got mine and don't see a need to rely on others (yet)"