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China doubled down, what on earth are you talking about? Every major corporation in China has a party member in a position of power to direct what the company

by tw04 2mo ago

China doubled down, what on earth are you talking about? Every major corporation in China has a party member in a position of power to direct what the company does. And many of them have state ownership. https://sccei.fsi.stanford.edu/china-briefs/reassessing-role-state-ownership-chinas-economy https://sccei.fsi.stanford.edu/china-briefs/reassessing-role... https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/arc-of-the-chinese-economy/state-ownership-in-china/64E108B734D0819AF683B477AF4BC88D https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/arc-of-the-chinese-...

inigyou 2mo ago
Which isn't what any socialist would call socialism. But it is what many capitalists would call socialism.
- vintermann 2mo ago
  Common ownership of the means of production is what I call socialism. Public welfare isn't technically part of it, but it's hard to imagine a state where we don't have it if power is at all evenly distributed. Central planning is orthogonal to the whole thing... credit institutions and corporations do a hell of a lot of centralized planning.
mytailorisrich 2mo ago
State ownership of many companies is not the same as socialism. China has state capitalism and private capitalist enterprises, and free enterprise with robust free markets overall. These are the main reforms that allowed it to thrive after the catastrophe of socialism under Mao. Even basic stuff like farmers being allowed to sell surplus freely for profit and at market prices only became allowed in 1978. China now has the second largest number of millionaires in USD after the US.
- tw04 2mo ago
  State ownership of companies is LITERALLY the definition of socialism. > a theory or system of social organization that advocates the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, capital, land, etc., by the community as a whole, usually through a centralized government.
  - mytailorisrich 2mo ago
    State ownership of all companies, yes, that's one implementation of socialism though not "literally the definition". But obviously this isn't how China is now and even state-owned companies in China generally operate in a market and can be in competition with private companies and other state-owned companies. In fact the Chinese eoconomy is probably more competitive that in the West now, it is fierce competition for profit with generally free enterprise. There are state-owned companies in all Western countries, by the way. I don't think that you are familiar with the history and economy of China.
    - tw04 2mo ago
      No, not all. I can only assume you've never even taken an entry level poli sci course, because socialism has never required COMPLETE ownership by the state. Furthermore, as I linked previously, in China it is north of 70% ownership by the state. >But obviously this isn't how China is now and even state-owned companies in China generally operate in a market and can be in competition with private companies and other state-owned companies. "Compete's in a market" is irrelevant to socialism. Again, basic poli sci, socialism encompasses both free market and captured market. What makes it socialism is government ownership of the means of production, with redistribution to the general populace. >There are state-owned companies in all Western countries, by the way. Right, and which western "capitalist" society has state ownerhsip of 70%+ of the "private" companies that make up its economy? Correct, 0. Socialism has never required the state to own all business in a given economy anymore than capitalism has required 0 ownership.
      - mytailorisrich 2mo ago
        Well, I think you've proven my point... > because socialism has never required COMPLETE ownership by the state Sure, it's only complete ownership by the workers. > What makes it socialism is government ownership of the means of production, with redistribution to the general populace. Well, then China is not socialist. QED. (and again, owenership by the workers, not necessarily thet state) I would advise you, in good faith and friendship, to visit China one day. It's a free market capitalist dream in day to day life.

by tw04 2mo ago

inigyou 2mo ago

Which isn't what any socialist would call socialism. But it is what many capitalists would call socialism.

vintermann 2mo ago
Common ownership of the means of production is what I call socialism. Public welfare isn't technically part of it, but it's hard to imagine a state where we don't have it if power is at all evenly distributed. Central planning is orthogonal to the whole thing... credit institutions and corporations do a hell of a lot of centralized planning.

mytailorisrich 2mo ago

State ownership of many companies is not the same as socialism. China has state capitalism and private capitalist enterprises, and free enterprise with robust free markets overall. These are the main reforms that allowed it to thrive after the catastrophe of socialism under Mao. Even basic stuff like farmers being allowed to sell surplus freely for profit and at market prices only became allowed in 1978. China now has the second largest number of millionaires in USD after the US.

tw04 2mo ago
State ownership of companies is LITERALLY the definition of socialism. > a theory or system of social organization that advocates the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, capital, land, etc., by the community as a whole, usually through a centralized government.
- mytailorisrich 2mo ago
  State ownership of all companies, yes, that's one implementation of socialism though not "literally the definition". But obviously this isn't how China is now and even state-owned companies in China generally operate in a market and can be in competition with private companies and other state-owned companies. In fact the Chinese eoconomy is probably more competitive that in the West now, it is fierce competition for profit with generally free enterprise. There are state-owned companies in all Western countries, by the way. I don't think that you are familiar with the history and economy of China.
  - tw04 2mo ago
    No, not all. I can only assume you've never even taken an entry level poli sci course, because socialism has never required COMPLETE ownership by the state. Furthermore, as I linked previously, in China it is north of 70% ownership by the state. >But obviously this isn't how China is now and even state-owned companies in China generally operate in a market and can be in competition with private companies and other state-owned companies. "Compete's in a market" is irrelevant to socialism. Again, basic poli sci, socialism encompasses both free market and captured market. What makes it socialism is government ownership of the means of production, with redistribution to the general populace. >There are state-owned companies in all Western countries, by the way. Right, and which western "capitalist" society has state ownerhsip of 70%+ of the "private" companies that make up its economy? Correct, 0. Socialism has never required the state to own all business in a given economy anymore than capitalism has required 0 ownership.
    - mytailorisrich 2mo ago
      Well, I think you've proven my point... > because socialism has never required COMPLETE ownership by the state Sure, it's only complete ownership by the workers. > What makes it socialism is government ownership of the means of production, with redistribution to the general populace. Well, then China is not socialist. QED. (and again, owenership by the workers, not necessarily thet state) I would advise you, in good faith and friendship, to visit China one day. It's a free market capitalist dream in day to day life.