5 ms·

Because people that enjoy programming for programming's sake don't want an LLM to do the programming for them - isn't it obvious? It's just like with any other

by Schnitz 2mo ago

Because people that enjoy programming for programming's sake don't want an LLM to do the programming for them - isn't it obvious? It's just like with any other hobby, people who like car racing created rules that force you to drive yourself, even though they'd get faster lap times with electronic driver aids. People who enjoy grappling created rules that force you to grapple, even though striking could win a fight faster. People that enjoy chess don't allow you to bring a computer to the chess table. The list is endless and the people that enjoy programming will create rules that force you to program, why shouldn't they? It's their hobby.

croes 2mo ago
Or Warhammer figurines painting, let’s buy them already painted
- senor_digimon 2mo ago
  You can take already painted warhammer figurines, pose them, take a photo, prompt an AI to make that your first scene, and generate a hollywood level scene in about a minute or two. Yes, sure, you can buy the figurine and get the joy of painting it. But there's new things you can do now too, things you couldn't dream about before. But I'll grant you this, the AI coding extinction event is so severe that I do believe we need to support anyone trying to preserve any memory of it. Like, we need to build entire museums, one for each programming language.
  - croes 2mo ago
    But would you blame the figurine painting community for not wanting that? If you want to do AI movies, join the AI movie community. The hobby programming community isn't about vibe coding, that's what the vibe coding community is for.
  - r_lee 2mo ago
    > You can take already painted warhammer figurines, pose them, take a photo, prompt an AI to make that your first scene, and generate a hollywood level scene in about a minute or two. if that's so awesome then why isn't everybody doing it? I never dreamt about stuff like that, but are there actually people who are like "oh thank God I can finally make my AI movies with my figurines and other stuff I have laying around" honestly you sound too enthusiastic about this, like Sam Altman "AI podcast about your kids" tier enthusiastic
    - orangedog 2mo ago
      What's the point of being this rude? People are doing things like this, you just have to look around YouTube. This is what I don't like about the anti stance, it's just so often dismissive when people are excited about something.
      - r_lee 2mo ago
        he's talking about building museums for programming languages due to the "coding extinction event" and how you can make "Hollywood level scenes" with your figurines and that it's time to give up the joys of painting them and instead just prompt all day. am I wrong to be dismissive of this? I mean seriously, if you read the post again it just seems so dystopian
    - kbelder 2mo ago
      People are doing it, but not that much, because while it generates some pretty good five-second scenes, it fails terribly at generating any long-form video. And by long-form, I mean 'longer than 30 seconds'. I think what people want is to tell a story that's in their imagination, and no current AI is up to that task (at least in video format). Great for making an animated PNG for a meme, but not for adapting that fanfic you are writing.
      - r_lee 2mo ago
        > I think what people want is to tell a story that's in their imagination, and no current AI is up to that task I just don't think this is the case? I could be wrong but I tend to hear this most from people who are obsessed with AI, as in trying to find use cases instead of people using AI to get that task done so far I've seen it be used in place of stock photos or still image scenes, even those are obvious and are a turnoff for me but this concept of having a story in your head and then just being so relieved that now you can finally prompt an AI to generate a short film or something from that... it's just a gut feeling, but I don't think most people are looking for that. having a story and then just sending it off to be generated where it'll inevitably look unnatural and a bit off, I just don't see how anyone would be wishing for this
- kombookcha 2mo ago
  If you don't want to paint, and also don't want to pay somebody else to paint them, there's always various alternatives like printed out papercraft stands. Fold them, stick them on the base and you are ready to roll. There's also a myriad of other creative ways to proxy your way out of the general costs (time, space and money) if you check out the term "poorhammer".
fenprace 2mo ago
People programme for 2 reasons: 1. Some programme because it’s the one of 2 ways to get the things they want (another way is hiring a team to code for them). Now that they have vibe coding, they’d happily never touch a line of code again. 2. Other people programmes because they just enjoy it. Vibe coding ruins the best part for them. Like telling a foodie, "Good news! I built a robot to eat your food for you." Most people getting paid to code are probably somewhere in the middle? But nowadays hand-writing code at work is starting to feel kinda 'illegal'. The manager is gonna ping you just because you fall behind on the company's token waste leaderboard. Maybe it's just another "hobby should never become job" story?
- deleted 2mo ago
  [deleted]
- djtango 2mo ago
  Hobby should only become job if you enjoy the craft of it and if the profession / job rewards craftsmanship. People in it just for the money won't care about craft - you see the same thing in plumbing. And when there's enough money and scale on the line, craft becomes progressively more niche - that is why Ikea furniture is a thing. And you can even say that there is craft in Ikea, just not along the axes a traditional furniture maker or user would consider.
  - Schnitz 2mo ago
    This is such a great point and raises existential career questions for everyone who got into a programming career because they love the craft. Either find your niche where craft will matter until you retire, leave the profession or accept that it’s now mostly about prompting. It’s almost like everyone’s being promoted into management or tech leading and can’t refuse…
    - djtango 2mo ago
      I think it was implied through the conversation but the other thing I have come to realise is that your hobby and craft should be about producing not consuming. Too many people think they like videogames or films and think they should therefore work in the industry only to be crushed by the industry. Even being a youtuber devolves into hours of storyboarding, editing and engagement farming which are orthogonal to your hobby. With respect to code it's a little murky but I guess the tension really is enjoying the process enough while being able to output the desired quality, volume and velocity required of you. Quality is usually the stickler because it's invisible to the end user and requirement setter but sometimes quality affects both ergonomics and future delivery and sometimes it's purely self-satisfactory. That isn't a value judgment, making things well is a gratifying and edifying experience - so much so that this practice overlaps with Shinto philosophy.... but not many people are going to pay you to have that experience.
brookst 2mo ago
This is true, but as usual nobody can agree on what "doing it yourself" means. Few cars are manual steering, manual brakes, manual transmission. Few grappling bodies go all Greek-naked. Few chess bodies forbid researching previous games or your opponent. The list is indeed endless, and every single person thinks they are using just the right amount of assistance; anything less is pointlessly difficult, anything more is cheating that takes the sport out. Me, I've been a hobbyist programmer since youth (6502 assembly, represent). I'm having a blast "writing" software without touching a line of code. Sure, I'm old, and maybe I'm like those guys blasting Veyrons through highways, relying on traction control and all the computers to let me drive beyond my abilities. And... ok? I'm having fun, even if I'm not doing it right, by random anonymous peoples' views.
- tshaddox 2mo ago
  > This is true, but as usual nobody can agree on what "doing it yourself" means. Not everyone has to agree. Just everyone in a particular group at a particular time. Grappling competitions exist and so do MMA competitions, and both of them will expect you to follow their own rules.
- pjmlp 2mo ago
  > Few cars are manual steering, manual brakes, manual transmission. Tell me you are not in European or African continent without telling me.
  - tonyedgecombe 2mo ago
    In Europe you would be hard pressed to find a car without power steering or assisted brakes.
    - pjmlp 2mo ago
      Still plenty to acquire around in second hand.
      - tonyedgecombe 2mo ago
rzmmm 2mo ago
It can also be a personal preference for minimalism vs. maximalism. Or many other things.
nullsanity 2mo ago
[dead]
draftsman 2mo ago
Writing code without an LLM is akin to cooking a meal yourself, as opposed to something in between hiring a private chef and pulling a slot machine lever. When I cook a meal for myself or my loved ones, I become deeply familiar with the ingredients and the recipe. I am a good cook. Every decision, small and large, I make myself. Using feedback, I can tweak the components and the process. However, if I order food and call it my own creation, I’ll be speechless when my nut-allergic friend asks me if I used peanut oil or olive oil. And does it taste good? The end result is subjective, not binary, like your three similes. What if the food sucks? Must I now micromanage the chef? I don’t want to make them cook it again and again, hoping each time it’ll taste little more like how I want it to. I’d rather just cook it myself; I am a good cook, afterall.
- sharperguy 2mo ago
  I don't see it the same way. I see it as akin to building a machine which can do the cooking for you. There is a lot of experimentation in terms of how you can construct that machine and how you can set it up, and for some people the payoff is in exactly this process.
  - ThunderSizzle 2mo ago
    That's me. I've just moved the puzzle to figuring out the CC optimal "language" and mode of working with an LLM. At the same time, I haven't lost my love/expertise... Yet. I explained it yesterday that it's no different than Linq powered by EF Core. You still need to understand the database and how SQL will work, or should. If you don't, you're queries will be slow and inefficient, hazardlessly oftentimes. LLMs are an impressive abstraction, but they are not magic...yet. or maybe it is, but you still need to figure out the incantations. Not that I like to uptick and witchcraft, so I hate that analogy.
  - Frieren 2mo ago
    > I see it as akin to building a machine which can do the cooking for you. More like buying a microwave and frozen food. Unless you are actually training the LLMs.
jeppester 2mo ago
My boss tried to make me interested in agentic programming by showing me how "productive" the creator of OpenClaw is. All I see is a fast food factory. Sure it's interesting that you can produce so much so quickly. But what is produced is endlessly uninteresting to me. It doesn't help that all the harness building is just SEO in disguise. Trial and error. I don't doubt that agentic programming makes it possible to produce faster, but it also comes at a great cost for me, which is that I largely don't enjoy my job anymore. If I was given the choice between that and halving my salary I would have chosen the latter.
- eliasson 2mo ago
  Yes. And (too) many people focus on the effort, or the LOC produced. Completely ignoring the value the thing produced actually brings.
rob74 2mo ago
True, but it sounded a bit paradoxical to me that the people who work on engines designed to beat humans at chess were themselves opposed to using engines that (arguably) beat humans at programming...
- bananaflag 2mo ago
  Exactly one of them threatens their lifestyle.
ransom1538 2mo ago
"Because people that enjoy programming for programming's sake don't want an LLM to do the programming for them - isn't it obvious? " How do we filter out these people during an interview?
- _luci_ 2mo ago
  why would you want to filter these people out? surely those that consider programming more than just a "means to an end" are going to be much more valuable employees, consider they are much more likely to be skilled at their craft? im genuinely interested in why you'd want to filter these people out!
  - ABoltzmannMush 2mo ago
    I want to find people who have already had all their passions and emotions stamped out by the endless grind already, so that they will tell an AI to do what I tell them for 996 without complaint. These people who "care" about things just get in the way and want time off and such.
    - _luci_ 2mo ago
      That is genuinely gross, I'm assuming it's just ragebait or something haha who actually thinks like this!
- WolfeReader 2mo ago
  Offer low pay and start using lines of code as a metric. Not only will you not hire such people, you'll also filter out any who might already be on your team! (Assuming "these people" is a euphemism for "skilled engineers")
burnoutdv 2mo ago
for me its that software, wrought by hand is "bespoke". Yes, there is a loooooot of software that is just commercial, quickly vomited by hands that are just in it for the money. On the other hand there are open source projects who might have a miss guided design philosophy (Darktable comes to mind) but are otherwise build from people that care. There was an "artisan" at work, someone who cared. When I see all those "show HN" projects that are slot level code it feels like they dont care about the result that much and just want to showcase their idea in a more tactile way, but there is no actual proper execution to make the thought into matter so to speak
alt227 2mo ago
I used to write code all day, solving maths and logic problems which is what my brain loves to do, and so I loved my job. Now I talk to a robot all day, trying to figure out how best to tell it whats in my brain. I no longer do maths and logic and instead I think about language and questions all day, holding in depth conversations and thinking up responses. This is something my brain naturally doesnt like to do and so I fatigue quickly in the day compared to my old job. I want to do maths and logic again :(
sunitram 2mo ago
I enjoy programming a lot, but still made the transition to using AI for my programming. It is a new tool that makes me much more efficient, I finally could continue working on my many open source projects that I couldn't touch for many years due to lack of time. My productivity is up, I'm pretty sure the code quality has improved, and I'm learning more than ever before; just in a different way.
tripzilch 2mo ago
Yeah exactly. My go-to example is that if you enjoy playing guitar, you're not going to stop doing it because Suno exists now. In addition, say if you had like a guitar-playing forum, where people share recordings of their practice. People would likely not appreciate it to share AI-generated audio of guitar-practicing there, either. And while there are various reasons for a guitar forum that might not hold for a programming forum, one of them remains: There's nothing to talk about when it's AI-generated. What scale did you use and how did you tune it? "I dunno, AI did it" All you can talk about is to say "oh cool that's cool that the algorithm machine you're paying subscription to access made you that thing, nice" Or for example, even when a friend of mine vibe-coded a "synthesizer" app and he wanted to show me cause he knows I like that kind of thing. And I do, I love digging into and experimenting with DSP algorithms, but also the user interfaces and all sorts of things digital audio related. And I love talking about it, or explaining stuff. But my friend couldn't tell me anything (not even that it was using WebAudio, but also how). Anyway it made me a bit sad, and I felt like something is lost here. Something worthwhile. And I explained it to him that then all I could really say was "oh cool that's cool that the algorithm machine made you that thing, nice", and we talked it over, and it was alright. But still, it seems something is lost.

by Schnitz 2mo ago

croes 2mo ago

Or Warhammer figurines painting, let’s buy them already painted

senor_digimon 2mo ago
You can take already painted warhammer figurines, pose them, take a photo, prompt an AI to make that your first scene, and generate a hollywood level scene in about a minute or two. Yes, sure, you can buy the figurine and get the joy of painting it. But there's new things you can do now too, things you couldn't dream about before. But I'll grant you this, the AI coding extinction event is so severe that I do believe we need to support anyone trying to preserve any memory of it. Like, we need to build entire museums, one for each programming language.
- croes 2mo ago
  But would you blame the figurine painting community for not wanting that? If you want to do AI movies, join the AI movie community. The hobby programming community isn't about vibe coding, that's what the vibe coding community is for.
- r_lee 2mo ago
  > You can take already painted warhammer figurines, pose them, take a photo, prompt an AI to make that your first scene, and generate a hollywood level scene in about a minute or two. if that's so awesome then why isn't everybody doing it? I never dreamt about stuff like that, but are there actually people who are like "oh thank God I can finally make my AI movies with my figurines and other stuff I have laying around" honestly you sound too enthusiastic about this, like Sam Altman "AI podcast about your kids" tier enthusiastic
  - orangedog 2mo ago
    What's the point of being this rude? People are doing things like this, you just have to look around YouTube. This is what I don't like about the anti stance, it's just so often dismissive when people are excited about something.
    - r_lee 2mo ago
      he's talking about building museums for programming languages due to the "coding extinction event" and how you can make "Hollywood level scenes" with your figurines and that it's time to give up the joys of painting them and instead just prompt all day. am I wrong to be dismissive of this? I mean seriously, if you read the post again it just seems so dystopian
  - kbelder 2mo ago
    People are doing it, but not that much, because while it generates some pretty good five-second scenes, it fails terribly at generating any long-form video. And by long-form, I mean 'longer than 30 seconds'. I think what people want is to tell a story that's in their imagination, and no current AI is up to that task (at least in video format). Great for making an animated PNG for a meme, but not for adapting that fanfic you are writing.
    - r_lee 2mo ago
      > I think what people want is to tell a story that's in their imagination, and no current AI is up to that task I just don't think this is the case? I could be wrong but I tend to hear this most from people who are obsessed with AI, as in trying to find use cases instead of people using AI to get that task done so far I've seen it be used in place of stock photos or still image scenes, even those are obvious and are a turnoff for me but this concept of having a story in your head and then just being so relieved that now you can finally prompt an AI to generate a short film or something from that... it's just a gut feeling, but I don't think most people are looking for that. having a story and then just sending it off to be generated where it'll inevitably look unnatural and a bit off, I just don't see how anyone would be wishing for this
kombookcha 2mo ago
If you don't want to paint, and also don't want to pay somebody else to paint them, there's always various alternatives like printed out papercraft stands. Fold them, stick them on the base and you are ready to roll. There's also a myriad of other creative ways to proxy your way out of the general costs (time, space and money) if you check out the term "poorhammer".

fenprace 2mo ago

People programme for 2 reasons: 1. Some programme because it’s the one of 2 ways to get the things they want (another way is hiring a team to code for them). Now that they have vibe coding, they’d happily never touch a line of code again. 2. Other people programmes because they just enjoy it. Vibe coding ruins the best part for them. Like telling a foodie, "Good news! I built a robot to eat your food for you." Most people getting paid to code are probably somewhere in the middle? But nowadays hand-writing code at work is starting to feel kinda 'illegal'. The manager is gonna ping you just because you fall behind on the company's token waste leaderboard. Maybe it's just another "hobby should never become job" story?

deleted 2mo ago
[deleted]
djtango 2mo ago
Hobby should only become job if you enjoy the craft of it and if the profession / job rewards craftsmanship. People in it just for the money won't care about craft - you see the same thing in plumbing. And when there's enough money and scale on the line, craft becomes progressively more niche - that is why Ikea furniture is a thing. And you can even say that there is craft in Ikea, just not along the axes a traditional furniture maker or user would consider.
- Schnitz 2mo ago
  This is such a great point and raises existential career questions for everyone who got into a programming career because they love the craft. Either find your niche where craft will matter until you retire, leave the profession or accept that it’s now mostly about prompting. It’s almost like everyone’s being promoted into management or tech leading and can’t refuse…
  - djtango 2mo ago
    I think it was implied through the conversation but the other thing I have come to realise is that your hobby and craft should be about producing not consuming. Too many people think they like videogames or films and think they should therefore work in the industry only to be crushed by the industry. Even being a youtuber devolves into hours of storyboarding, editing and engagement farming which are orthogonal to your hobby. With respect to code it's a little murky but I guess the tension really is enjoying the process enough while being able to output the desired quality, volume and velocity required of you. Quality is usually the stickler because it's invisible to the end user and requirement setter but sometimes quality affects both ergonomics and future delivery and sometimes it's purely self-satisfactory. That isn't a value judgment, making things well is a gratifying and edifying experience - so much so that this practice overlaps with Shinto philosophy.... but not many people are going to pay you to have that experience.

brookst 2mo ago

This is true, but as usual nobody can agree on what "doing it yourself" means. Few cars are manual steering, manual brakes, manual transmission. Few grappling bodies go all Greek-naked. Few chess bodies forbid researching previous games or your opponent. The list is indeed endless, and every single person thinks they are using just the right amount of assistance; anything less is pointlessly difficult, anything more is cheating that takes the sport out. Me, I've been a hobbyist programmer since youth (6502 assembly, represent). I'm having a blast "writing" software without touching a line of code. Sure, I'm old, and maybe I'm like those guys blasting Veyrons through highways, relying on traction control and all the computers to let me drive beyond my abilities. And... ok? I'm having fun, even if I'm not doing it right, by random anonymous peoples' views.

tshaddox 2mo ago
> This is true, but as usual nobody can agree on what "doing it yourself" means. Not everyone has to agree. Just everyone in a particular group at a particular time. Grappling competitions exist and so do MMA competitions, and both of them will expect you to follow their own rules.
pjmlp 2mo ago
> Few cars are manual steering, manual brakes, manual transmission. Tell me you are not in European or African continent without telling me.
- tonyedgecombe 2mo ago
  In Europe you would be hard pressed to find a car without power steering or assisted brakes.
  - pjmlp 2mo ago
    Still plenty to acquire around in second hand.
    - tonyedgecombe 2mo ago

rzmmm 2mo ago

It can also be a personal preference for minimalism vs. maximalism. Or many other things.

nullsanity 2mo ago

[dead]

draftsman 2mo ago

Writing code without an LLM is akin to cooking a meal yourself, as opposed to something in between hiring a private chef and pulling a slot machine lever. When I cook a meal for myself or my loved ones, I become deeply familiar with the ingredients and the recipe. I am a good cook. Every decision, small and large, I make myself. Using feedback, I can tweak the components and the process. However, if I order food and call it my own creation, I’ll be speechless when my nut-allergic friend asks me if I used peanut oil or olive oil. And does it taste good? The end result is subjective, not binary, like your three similes. What if the food sucks? Must I now micromanage the chef? I don’t want to make them cook it again and again, hoping each time it’ll taste little more like how I want it to. I’d rather just cook it myself; I am a good cook, afterall.

sharperguy 2mo ago
I don't see it the same way. I see it as akin to building a machine which can do the cooking for you. There is a lot of experimentation in terms of how you can construct that machine and how you can set it up, and for some people the payoff is in exactly this process.
- ThunderSizzle 2mo ago
  That's me. I've just moved the puzzle to figuring out the CC optimal "language" and mode of working with an LLM. At the same time, I haven't lost my love/expertise... Yet. I explained it yesterday that it's no different than Linq powered by EF Core. You still need to understand the database and how SQL will work, or should. If you don't, you're queries will be slow and inefficient, hazardlessly oftentimes. LLMs are an impressive abstraction, but they are not magic...yet. or maybe it is, but you still need to figure out the incantations. Not that I like to uptick and witchcraft, so I hate that analogy.
- Frieren 2mo ago
  > I see it as akin to building a machine which can do the cooking for you. More like buying a microwave and frozen food. Unless you are actually training the LLMs.

jeppester 2mo ago

My boss tried to make me interested in agentic programming by showing me how "productive" the creator of OpenClaw is. All I see is a fast food factory. Sure it's interesting that you can produce so much so quickly. But what is produced is endlessly uninteresting to me. It doesn't help that all the harness building is just SEO in disguise. Trial and error. I don't doubt that agentic programming makes it possible to produce faster, but it also comes at a great cost for me, which is that I largely don't enjoy my job anymore. If I was given the choice between that and halving my salary I would have chosen the latter.

eliasson 2mo ago
Yes. And (too) many people focus on the effort, or the LOC produced. Completely ignoring the value the thing produced actually brings.

rob74 2mo ago

True, but it sounded a bit paradoxical to me that the people who work on engines designed to beat humans at chess were themselves opposed to using engines that (arguably) beat humans at programming...

bananaflag 2mo ago
Exactly one of them threatens their lifestyle.

ransom1538 2mo ago

"Because people that enjoy programming for programming's sake don't want an LLM to do the programming for them - isn't it obvious? " How do we filter out these people during an interview?

_luci_ 2mo ago
why would you want to filter these people out? surely those that consider programming more than just a "means to an end" are going to be much more valuable employees, consider they are much more likely to be skilled at their craft? im genuinely interested in why you'd want to filter these people out!
- ABoltzmannMush 2mo ago
  I want to find people who have already had all their passions and emotions stamped out by the endless grind already, so that they will tell an AI to do what I tell them for 996 without complaint. These people who "care" about things just get in the way and want time off and such.
  - _luci_ 2mo ago
    That is genuinely gross, I'm assuming it's just ragebait or something haha who actually thinks like this!
WolfeReader 2mo ago
Offer low pay and start using lines of code as a metric. Not only will you not hire such people, you'll also filter out any who might already be on your team! (Assuming "these people" is a euphemism for "skilled engineers")

burnoutdv 2mo ago

for me its that software, wrought by hand is "bespoke". Yes, there is a loooooot of software that is just commercial, quickly vomited by hands that are just in it for the money. On the other hand there are open source projects who might have a miss guided design philosophy (Darktable comes to mind) but are otherwise build from people that care. There was an "artisan" at work, someone who cared. When I see all those "show HN" projects that are slot level code it feels like they dont care about the result that much and just want to showcase their idea in a more tactile way, but there is no actual proper execution to make the thought into matter so to speak

alt227 2mo ago

I used to write code all day, solving maths and logic problems which is what my brain loves to do, and so I loved my job. Now I talk to a robot all day, trying to figure out how best to tell it whats in my brain. I no longer do maths and logic and instead I think about language and questions all day, holding in depth conversations and thinking up responses. This is something my brain naturally doesnt like to do and so I fatigue quickly in the day compared to my old job. I want to do maths and logic again :(

sunitram 2mo ago

I enjoy programming a lot, but still made the transition to using AI for my programming. It is a new tool that makes me much more efficient, I finally could continue working on my many open source projects that I couldn't touch for many years due to lack of time. My productivity is up, I'm pretty sure the code quality has improved, and I'm learning more than ever before; just in a different way.

tripzilch 2mo ago

Yeah exactly. My go-to example is that if you enjoy playing guitar, you're not going to stop doing it because Suno exists now. In addition, say if you had like a guitar-playing forum, where people share recordings of their practice. People would likely not appreciate it to share AI-generated audio of guitar-practicing there, either. And while there are various reasons for a guitar forum that might not hold for a programming forum, one of them remains: There's nothing to talk about when it's AI-generated. What scale did you use and how did you tune it? "I dunno, AI did it" All you can talk about is to say "oh cool that's cool that the algorithm machine you're paying subscription to access made you that thing, nice" Or for example, even when a friend of mine vibe-coded a "synthesizer" app and he wanted to show me cause he knows I like that kind of thing. And I do, I love digging into and experimenting with DSP algorithms, but also the user interfaces and all sorts of things digital audio related. And I love talking about it, or explaining stuff. But my friend couldn't tell me anything (not even that it was using WebAudio, but also how). Anyway it made me a bit sad, and I felt like something is lost here. Something worthwhile. And I explained it to him that then all I could really say was "oh cool that's cool that the algorithm machine made you that thing, nice", and we talked it over, and it was alright. But still, it seems something is lost.