3 ms·

But don't you see how the fact that many cases are individual makes it harder? You mention doorknobs, and it's easy to declare (which is why the US government h

But don't you see how the fact that many cases are individual makes it harder? You mention doorknobs, and it's easy to declare (which is why the US government has declared) that lever style door handles are more accessible and should be preferred. It's hard, impossibly so, to construct a world where nobody with wrist mobility problems will ever encounter a round doorknob they'd like to open.

jnovek 3mo ago
It seems like the implication here is “if we can’t do anything, we shouldn’t do anything at all” under the social model. Not every doorknob will be disability friendly. If pressure from the social model fixes 20% of doorknobs, now there is a group of people can open 20% of doors where they could open 0% before.
- SpicyLemonZest 3mo ago
  My intended implication is that pressure from the social model has achieved as much as it can, and the left over problems must be resolved through other means. The vast majority of doorknobs I personally interact with, including 100% of the ones at my house and workplace, are lever-style.
  - jnovek 3mo ago
    As a disabled person, my experience indicates that we’re not even close to what the social model could achieve. Example: I have a chronic pain disorder. I have substantial difficulty working in an office. WFH was an absolute blessing, and RTO has been a curse. RTO is a regressive policy for disabled people who found they were finally able to participate in their industry for the first time in ages. Now they are expected to take on extra burden to function in an able-bodied world. Many, whose bodies do not allow that option simply have to go back on SSDI. That is an example of progress in the social model that has regressed back to the medical model.
    - SpicyLemonZest 3mo ago
      I'm sympathetic to your problems, but I don't think this has anything to do with the social model or medical model. Even the strongest advocates of the social model of disability wouldn't argue, I don't think, that construction site supervisors must be allowed to work from home after setting up some cameras and microphones to monitor what's happening. The dispute here is that RTO employers think working together in an office is similarly important, but you think they're wrong and WFH is just as good.
      - jnovek 2mo ago
        > Even the strongest advocates of the social model of disability wouldn't argue, I don't think, that construction site supervisors must be allowed to work from home after setting up some cameras and microphones to monitor what's happening. That is a man of straw! I’m talking about desk jobs, here, and I think that’s pretty clear from my comment above. I don’t know how RTO could be seen as anything but the medical model — Medical model: it is the disabled person’s responsibility to figure out how to function in society. Social model: it is society’s responsibility to accommodate people with disabilities. In any case, I’m actively involved in the disability community and this is one of the biggest — if not the biggest — conversations in the community recent years. WFH/RTO has become the poster-child for the conflict between the medical and social model. This is why I chose it as an example.
        SpicyLemonZest 2mo ago
        You think (and I do acknowledge that this perspective is very common in the disability community) that desk work is completely different and can be done remotely with no loss. There are many businesses in the US who agree with you; the numbers I've seen are that at least 10-15% of Americans (some sources say 22%) work fully remote jobs. It's good that these opportunities exist, and I would support creating them if they didn't. Other businesses don't agree. Managers at these businesses want people chitchatting with each other, grabbing lunch together, having hallway talks, etc. They think that desk work is at its best when it's a social activity, and often have specific points where they feel their business didn't work as well when Covid forced everyone to stay home. Why does the social model of disability imply that the second group of businesses is wrong, or that we have to override their judgment?
8note 3mo ago
> it's hard, impossibly so, to construct a world where nobody with wrist mobility problems will ever encounter a round doorknob they'd like to open. its not that hard to get to 99.999% though. stop selling door knobs, or doors that accept round knobs. add incentives to swap or return round knobs. include checks for round knobs both for building inspections and insurance. you wont wont get the last couple people that build their own doors and machine their own knobs, but thats gonna be a really small segment
- SpicyLemonZest 3mo ago
  You can't talk about things from a social model perspective without modeling the political realities of the policies you're proposing. A national ban on the sale of round doorknobs would not pass, and local bans would create an enormous backlash which might well ruin the longstanding consensus that ADA compliance requires levers.
- keybrd-intrrpt 3mo ago
  > stop selling door knobs, or doors that accept round knobs. Ok, but that's not a "Silicon Valley" thing. Go talk to politicians or Home Depot and Lowe's and the home builders conventions. That's why the post screams of mis-placed anger. Silicon Valley probably would invent FaceID / NFC / Passkeys / WIFI authentication for doors - but that doesn't mean they'll get installed anywhere.

jnovek 3mo ago

It seems like the implication here is “if we can’t do anything, we shouldn’t do anything at all” under the social model. Not every doorknob will be disability friendly. If pressure from the social model fixes 20% of doorknobs, now there is a group of people can open 20% of doors where they could open 0% before.

SpicyLemonZest 3mo ago
My intended implication is that pressure from the social model has achieved as much as it can, and the left over problems must be resolved through other means. The vast majority of doorknobs I personally interact with, including 100% of the ones at my house and workplace, are lever-style.
- jnovek 3mo ago
  As a disabled person, my experience indicates that we’re not even close to what the social model could achieve. Example: I have a chronic pain disorder. I have substantial difficulty working in an office. WFH was an absolute blessing, and RTO has been a curse. RTO is a regressive policy for disabled people who found they were finally able to participate in their industry for the first time in ages. Now they are expected to take on extra burden to function in an able-bodied world. Many, whose bodies do not allow that option simply have to go back on SSDI. That is an example of progress in the social model that has regressed back to the medical model.
  - SpicyLemonZest 3mo ago
    I'm sympathetic to your problems, but I don't think this has anything to do with the social model or medical model. Even the strongest advocates of the social model of disability wouldn't argue, I don't think, that construction site supervisors must be allowed to work from home after setting up some cameras and microphones to monitor what's happening. The dispute here is that RTO employers think working together in an office is similarly important, but you think they're wrong and WFH is just as good.
    - jnovek 2mo ago
      > Even the strongest advocates of the social model of disability wouldn't argue, I don't think, that construction site supervisors must be allowed to work from home after setting up some cameras and microphones to monitor what's happening. That is a man of straw! I’m talking about desk jobs, here, and I think that’s pretty clear from my comment above. I don’t know how RTO could be seen as anything but the medical model — Medical model: it is the disabled person’s responsibility to figure out how to function in society. Social model: it is society’s responsibility to accommodate people with disabilities. In any case, I’m actively involved in the disability community and this is one of the biggest — if not the biggest — conversations in the community recent years. WFH/RTO has become the poster-child for the conflict between the medical and social model. This is why I chose it as an example.
      - SpicyLemonZest 2mo ago
        You think (and I do acknowledge that this perspective is very common in the disability community) that desk work is completely different and can be done remotely with no loss. There are many businesses in the US who agree with you; the numbers I've seen are that at least 10-15% of Americans (some sources say 22%) work fully remote jobs. It's good that these opportunities exist, and I would support creating them if they didn't. Other businesses don't agree. Managers at these businesses want people chitchatting with each other, grabbing lunch together, having hallway talks, etc. They think that desk work is at its best when it's a social activity, and often have specific points where they feel their business didn't work as well when Covid forced everyone to stay home. Why does the social model of disability imply that the second group of businesses is wrong, or that we have to override their judgment?

8note 3mo ago

> it's hard, impossibly so, to construct a world where nobody with wrist mobility problems will ever encounter a round doorknob they'd like to open. its not that hard to get to 99.999% though. stop selling door knobs, or doors that accept round knobs. add incentives to swap or return round knobs. include checks for round knobs both for building inspections and insurance. you wont wont get the last couple people that build their own doors and machine their own knobs, but thats gonna be a really small segment

SpicyLemonZest 3mo ago
You can't talk about things from a social model perspective without modeling the political realities of the policies you're proposing. A national ban on the sale of round doorknobs would not pass, and local bans would create an enormous backlash which might well ruin the longstanding consensus that ADA compliance requires levers.
keybrd-intrrpt 3mo ago
> stop selling door knobs, or doors that accept round knobs. Ok, but that's not a "Silicon Valley" thing. Go talk to politicians or Home Depot and Lowe's and the home builders conventions. That's why the post screams of mis-placed anger. Silicon Valley probably would invent FaceID / NFC / Passkeys / WIFI authentication for doors - but that doesn't mean they'll get installed anywhere.