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I’m a bit surprised they didn’t add zwave into this comparison.
by SEJeff 2mo ago
I’m a bit surprised they didn’t add zwave into this comparison.
- asveikau 2mo agoDoesn't zwave use a different frequency, and zigbee and thread are both 2.4ghz? Perhaps that makes it a more fair comparison?
- unsnap_biceps 2mo agosome zigbee controllers even support being converted to thread via a firmware update
- tehlike 2mo agosmlights do that! they are great.
- mukundzzha 2mo agohey buddy! are you a coder?
- SEJeff 2mo agoYes, zwave is in the much less congested 900mhz range. It is a fair bit more reliable as it doesn’t compete with: - WiFi - Bluetooth - microwave ovens Additionally, it’s a bit more strict with certification so you can easily use multiple vendors for zwave whereas with zigbee it’s often a terrible experience since vendors implement things differently in ways that are not as interoperable. In fact, for a device to be certified by the zwave alliance, it must pass strict conformance testing to ensure backwards compatibility and interoperability.
- petre 2mo agoOn Europe the 860MHz band is subject to more restrictive transmission duty cycles, LBT or FHSS. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short-range_device#SRD860 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short-range_device#SRD860 In the US you also have the FCC reshaping the 900 MHz for industrial broadband and NextNav. So there will be more competition. https://www.nemko.com/blog/fcc-reshapes-the-900-mhz-band-for-industrial-broadband-1 https://www.nemko.com/blog/fcc-reshapes-the-900-mhz-band-for... https://www.landisgyr.com/br/pt/home/knowledge/blog/Navigating-the-900-MHz-FCC-Proceeding---5-Key-Points-to-Know https://www.landisgyr.com/br/pt/home/knowledge/blog/Navigati...
- parineum 2mo agoAll it costs is significantly more money and less options. If you limit your pool of zigbee devices to just more reputable companies, you'll end up with around the same amount of options as zwave and they'll be reliable but significantly cheaper. You also have the option to find some super cheap stuff that works just fine. That usually requires some research but not much. You can also build ESPHome devices for zigbee but that's pretty niche, to say the least. Having previously been all zwave then moved and tried to go matter but ended up with zigbee, I wish I never listened to people saying what you are. As far as I'm concerned, zwave doesn't know it's dead yet and Matter isn't going to fulfill it's promises because the corporate interests that wouldn't give you local control with zigbee aren't suddenly going to change their minds because it says matter now.
- BHSPitMonkey 2mo agoBut Matter _is_ locally-controlled. Matter-over-Thread is better as there's no side channels to abuse; Matter-over-Wifi also guarantees local control though the presence of Wifi means a high probability of some additional onboard software bloat the manufacturer can use to enshittify the product if you're not careful.
- wao0uuno 2mo agoMy entire “smart” home setup is built with Matter over Thread. It’s fully local. No internet access required. With Home Assistant onboarding can be done without a smartphone now. Devices without official certification work but probably only in Home Assistant.
- iamacyborg 2mo agoMy Matter over Thread stuff keeps occasionally falling over in Home Assistant and becoming unavailable, probably a router issue as I’m using a homepod mini but still endlessly frustrating.
- wao0uuno 2mo agoI’m using ZBT-2 with HAOS on RPi 4 4GB. It’s rock solid in a crowded apartment complex. Devices are 90% IKEA and 10% Aqara. Definitely try that antenna and don’t connect additional border routers. Let HA own everything.
- torginus 2mo agoThis is both good and bad, and no surprise its an American standard. Lower frequencies have higher range, which is good if you live in a house (because range), and bad if you live in an apartment (because interference and crowded channels). So it will compete with itself, and everything on the ISM band (which you have no control over).
- montjoy 2mo agoAlso, Z-wave’s frequency is a bit better at handling things like metal electrical boxes - useful if you live in an older home. Anecdotally, I have Z-wave, Zigbee, and WiFi devices. Z-wave and WiFi are far more reliable than zigbee.
- Tor3 2mo agoZwave frequencies, as well as regulations, vary between countries/regions. This means that equipment isn't interchangeable, something I'm currently running into - I can't get a zwave electronic door lock for Japan while I could easily have bought one in my home country. But I wouldn't be able to bring it if I wanted to. Zigbee is basically the same everywhere, however the 2.4GHz band is of course somewhat congested.
- walrus01 2mo agoyes, and also that if someone is buying stuff new, it should be exclusively zwave800 stuff. example hardware on the "hub" end would be: https://www.home-assistant.io/connect/zwa-2/ https://www.home-assistant.io/connect/zwa-2/ https://www.getzooz.com/zooz-zst39-z-wave-long-range-usb-stick/ https://www.getzooz.com/zooz-zst39-z-wave-long-range-usb-sti... the zooz is this internally: https://www.silabs.com/wireless/z-wave/800-series-modem-soc/device.efr32zg23a020f512gm40?tab=specs https://www.silabs.com/wireless/z-wave/800-series-modem-soc/...
- mrheosuper 2mo agoanother protocol/wireless stack? Why can't we settle down to something that is at least "good enough"?
- margalabargala 2mo agoBecause zwave is proprietary. There's money to be made here! Can you imagine the lost profit potential if people standardize on an open protocol like ZigBee?
- SEJeff 2mo agoIt is so proprietary in fact all of the spec is on github: https://github.com/zwave-js/specs https://github.com/zwave-js/specs
- schubidubiduba 2mo agoEven with a spec on github, a protocol can still be proprietary, e.g. if companies have to pay to use it legally in products
- mlrtime 2mo agoTry to build a device and not pay the tax stamp. You can see it in products like inovelli where zwave is always more than zigbee. https://inovelli.com/collections/z-wave-light-switches-red-series https://inovelli.com/collections/z-wave-light-switches-red-s...
- margalabargala 2mo agoThey're probably only comparing open protocols. If one doesn't care if their protocol is proprietary then sure one might consider zwave. But it's hardly "surprising" that it's left out.
- SEJeff 2mo agoWhat? The entire specification is in this git repo maintained by the home assistant team. Also, they’re on the zwave board now. It’s wholly open, but wasn’t maybe 4-5 years ago. https://github.com/zwave-js/specs https://github.com/zwave-js/specs
- margalabargala 2mo agoSource available is not the same as open. Source available does not mean non-proprietary. Just like HDMI, if you want to build a device that uses Zwave, you must pay for the privilege.
- SEJeff 2mo agoYou pay to have it tested and certified to use the trademark. This is why so much zwave kit from different vendors works perfectly where as zigbee it’s more of a crap shoot if different vendor’s gear works well together.
- margalabargala 2mo agoThat would be great if it were true, but my experience has been that Zwave devices have consistently flaked out while Zigbee have been more solid.
- brianaker 2mo agoThe funny part is that people think that Zigbee and Matter are open :) All three of them have their shortcomings. Matter requires an unsecured IPv6 network to operate; I have my doubts about it having any longterm future.
- waste_monk 2mo agoI'd like to use z-wave but as an Australian we have different allowed frequency bands (specifically the USA-market gear uses frequencies that are reserved for telecom use over here, and anything that can interfere with the ability to call emergency services is Very Illegal), and thus the few devices that get built supporting the AU rf bands are overly expensive due to the (lack of) economy of scale. As a result my home automation stack is a mix of zigbee, Matter (over both Wifi and Thread), and just plain WiFi. All of which uses the 2.4Ghz (and 5Ghz but mostly 2.4 for the IoT stuff) ISM band(s) and is thus cheap and plentiful. Not sure how many other regions suffer the same issues, but I suspect that z-wave will be outcompeted by the more modern alternatives in the coming years. /rant
- SEJeff 2mo agoHey mate, Z-Wave in Australia operates on the 919.8 MHz regional frequency, which is different from the US (908.4 MHz) or Europe (868.4 MHz). They have AU certified zwave kit.
- waste_monk 2mo agoThat was my main gripe - AU z-wave kit exists, but since we can't share devices with the USA (or as I understand between regions in general e.g. UK, USA, and AUS z-wave are mutually incompatible) the range of products in AUS region is severely limited, and the ones that are released here are far more expensive than the USA region equivalents (after adjusting for currency conversion) due to the smaller volume of manufacture. Whereas you can pick up a zigbee or thread device, put it down on a different continent, and after pairing etc. it'll just work.
- SEJeff 2mo agoYeah that majorly sucks mate. Perhaps zwave devices just don’t work well upside down?