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Leaving AI completely aside, it still amazes me that people finds "novel" the idea of removing highly-paid white collar intellectual workers (software developer

by artyom 2mo ago

Leaving AI completely aside, it still amazes me that people finds "novel" the idea of removing highly-paid white collar intellectual workers (software developers or otherwise) completely out of the loop. No-code platforms date back to the 80's. Getting rid of engineers in general is even older [*]. Even relational databases and SQL were initially promoted as "ways to get rid of those expensive programmers to access your data" because they resembled some form of English. The funny thing about the ad below is that stuff like "stop hiring / get rid of humans" would have been seen as highly insensitive in 1950's America, so they touted that as "put them to do something more important". [*] https://www.globalnerdy.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/150_extra_engineers_thumb.jpg https://www.globalnerdy.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/200...

brunoarueira 2mo ago
To colaborate a bit with the no-code part, I worked at a place where they had some flows made with n8n, but the last one from non tech/software engineering left the company and left a bunch of flows breaking, because of some edge cases the flows aren't handling like reissuing credentials, throtling or bad input. The people dependent of said flows reached out to the engineering team to help fix them!
reasonableklout 2mo ago
It's novel because previous rounds of automation were about automating specific tasks or well-scoped functions. There was always an implicit understanding that the white-collar worker would be freed to spend their time on more valuable, higher-level problems. But this time is different because of the generality of the technology. Agents promise to automate the process of thinking itself. And in many domains they can learn new tasks as fast as white-collar workers can find them.
- majormajor 2mo ago
  > It's novel because previous rounds of automation were about automating specific tasks or well-scoped functions. There was always an implicit understanding that the white-collar worker would be freed to spend their time on more valuable, higher-level problems. But this time is different because of the generality of the technology. Agents promise to automate the process of thinking itself. And in many domains they can learn new tasks as fast as white-collar workers can find them. Nah, sometimes the expectation and advertisement was that you could let go of the white collar worker because you're paying the overseas person 1/10th the amount. And "overseas person" is pretty general. "Everybody knew" it was a bad idea to get a CS degree for a bit after the dot-com bust because of that. (Some white-collar industries did get hit much harder by that; VFX is one I've heard in that context quite a bit.)
  - strangegecko 2mo ago
    The overseas person didn't work out because of time zone and cultural and language barrier friction that wasn't anticipated in the idea. This isn't analogous to the threat of AI.
    - antonvs 2mo ago
      I’m at a fully remote company with staff in at least 8 countries speaking at least 5 languages. It works out fine. A possible analogy to AI is that a lot depends on how you use it. The “skill issue” doesn’t disappear, at least not yet.
    - e12e 2mo ago
      You say that as if the culture difference with a truly alien intelligence is insignificant compared to the culture difference with an "overseas person". (Even assuming "intelligent" is a sensible label to apply to an LLM holding hands with a shell script in an infinite loop)
  - reasonableklout 2mo ago
    That's a good point. However, overseas people are still people. They need to sleep, get sick, and the better they get at their jobs, the more money they will demand. The cheap ones also often have communication barriers and work slower than the workers they're replacing. AI models get better and more efficient every 3 months, run around the clock, can be copied infinitely, and unprecedented amounts of capital and research talent are being thrown at any limitations we can see with them (such as problems writing correct code in 2024, lack of agency in 2025, autonomy and self-improvement in 2026). That's the difference between labor replacement through outsourcing vs. labor replacement through automation.
    - djhn 2mo ago
      The implied assumption that “writing correct code” used to be a limitation that has been solved since 2024 is… overstating current capabilities. The idea that “AI models” have acquired “agency” as of 2025 and are working on “self-improvement” in 2026 is closer to delusion than exaggeration.
- AndrewKemendo 2mo ago
  >There was always an implicit understanding that the white-collar worker would be freed to spend their time on more valuable, higher-level problems "Oh yeah, we're gonna bring in some entry-level graduates, farm some work out to Singapore, that's the usual deal" Office Space 1999 It was so pervasive that it was satirized by someone that had worked in engineering in the 80s
- geraneum 2mo ago
  > It's novel because previous rounds of automation were about automating specific tasks or well-scoped functions. Evidently, this has not really changed with LLMs and coding agents. It’s what AI companies are betting on though.
dataviz1000 2mo ago
How many people here started writing code because of no code Drupal?
- artyom 2mo ago
  I'm quite a bit older than that, so no. But I 100% get your point.
doginasuit 2mo ago
Marketing about a more efficient product that requires fewer engineers is obviously not new. The idea that human engineers are obsolete is pretty new, that's the claim that is getting pushback.
- artyom 2mo ago
  I understand that but I think it's in direct proportion of the money being raised, spent and thrown around, including the price tag, to replace such engineers. The more money you ask for, the wilder the claim needs to be.
nylonstrung 2mo ago
I don't think the no-code comparison is valid, it's always been fundamentally flawed since its many leaky abstractions sitting on top of systems programming code LLMs can't replace developers but its foundationally different because it can operate on systems code instead of building abstractions on top

by artyom 2mo ago

brunoarueira 2mo ago

To colaborate a bit with the no-code part, I worked at a place where they had some flows made with n8n, but the last one from non tech/software engineering left the company and left a bunch of flows breaking, because of some edge cases the flows aren't handling like reissuing credentials, throtling or bad input. The people dependent of said flows reached out to the engineering team to help fix them!

reasonableklout 2mo ago

It's novel because previous rounds of automation were about automating specific tasks or well-scoped functions. There was always an implicit understanding that the white-collar worker would be freed to spend their time on more valuable, higher-level problems. But this time is different because of the generality of the technology. Agents promise to automate the process of thinking itself. And in many domains they can learn new tasks as fast as white-collar workers can find them.

majormajor 2mo ago
> It's novel because previous rounds of automation were about automating specific tasks or well-scoped functions. There was always an implicit understanding that the white-collar worker would be freed to spend their time on more valuable, higher-level problems. But this time is different because of the generality of the technology. Agents promise to automate the process of thinking itself. And in many domains they can learn new tasks as fast as white-collar workers can find them. Nah, sometimes the expectation and advertisement was that you could let go of the white collar worker because you're paying the overseas person 1/10th the amount. And "overseas person" is pretty general. "Everybody knew" it was a bad idea to get a CS degree for a bit after the dot-com bust because of that. (Some white-collar industries did get hit much harder by that; VFX is one I've heard in that context quite a bit.)
- strangegecko 2mo ago
  The overseas person didn't work out because of time zone and cultural and language barrier friction that wasn't anticipated in the idea. This isn't analogous to the threat of AI.
  - antonvs 2mo ago
    I’m at a fully remote company with staff in at least 8 countries speaking at least 5 languages. It works out fine. A possible analogy to AI is that a lot depends on how you use it. The “skill issue” doesn’t disappear, at least not yet.
  - e12e 2mo ago
    You say that as if the culture difference with a truly alien intelligence is insignificant compared to the culture difference with an "overseas person". (Even assuming "intelligent" is a sensible label to apply to an LLM holding hands with a shell script in an infinite loop)
- reasonableklout 2mo ago
  That's a good point. However, overseas people are still people. They need to sleep, get sick, and the better they get at their jobs, the more money they will demand. The cheap ones also often have communication barriers and work slower than the workers they're replacing. AI models get better and more efficient every 3 months, run around the clock, can be copied infinitely, and unprecedented amounts of capital and research talent are being thrown at any limitations we can see with them (such as problems writing correct code in 2024, lack of agency in 2025, autonomy and self-improvement in 2026). That's the difference between labor replacement through outsourcing vs. labor replacement through automation.
  - djhn 2mo ago
    The implied assumption that “writing correct code” used to be a limitation that has been solved since 2024 is… overstating current capabilities. The idea that “AI models” have acquired “agency” as of 2025 and are working on “self-improvement” in 2026 is closer to delusion than exaggeration.
AndrewKemendo 2mo ago
>There was always an implicit understanding that the white-collar worker would be freed to spend their time on more valuable, higher-level problems "Oh yeah, we're gonna bring in some entry-level graduates, farm some work out to Singapore, that's the usual deal" Office Space 1999 It was so pervasive that it was satirized by someone that had worked in engineering in the 80s
geraneum 2mo ago
> It's novel because previous rounds of automation were about automating specific tasks or well-scoped functions. Evidently, this has not really changed with LLMs and coding agents. It’s what AI companies are betting on though.

dataviz1000 2mo ago

How many people here started writing code because of no code Drupal?

artyom 2mo ago
I'm quite a bit older than that, so no. But I 100% get your point.

doginasuit 2mo ago

Marketing about a more efficient product that requires fewer engineers is obviously not new. The idea that human engineers are obsolete is pretty new, that's the claim that is getting pushback.

artyom 2mo ago
I understand that but I think it's in direct proportion of the money being raised, spent and thrown around, including the price tag, to replace such engineers. The more money you ask for, the wilder the claim needs to be.

nylonstrung 2mo ago

I don't think the no-code comparison is valid, it's always been fundamentally flawed since its many leaky abstractions sitting on top of systems programming code LLMs can't replace developers but its foundationally different because it can operate on systems code instead of building abstractions on top