5 ms·

There's a farmers market here in Zurich where some Italians drive up and sell Italian products like cheeses, sausages, etc. but one thing I buy from them I've n

There's a farmers market here in Zurich where some Italians drive up and sell Italian products like cheeses, sausages, etc. but one thing I buy from them I've never seen anywhere else - they are rotten salted anchovies packed with peppercorns. Stink super bad and are falling apart but when you're making a sauce you drop one in and the anchovy dissolves and delivers tons of umami - glutamates - and you no longer smell the rotten fish smell. I'm sure professional chefs must know about these. I keep them in baggies in the freezer so that they don't stink up the fridge.

rob74 2mo ago
I mean, instead of investing so much effort to get glutamate into your food, why not use MSG directly? Sounds like much less hassle? Reminds me of the time when Big Food over here in Germany replaced MSG with "yeast extract" so they could claim that their foods contained no artificial flavor enhancers (although the yeast extract also contains a lot of glutamate).
- pluralmonad 2mo ago
  Like labelling bacon nitrate free while also including celery seed something-or-another that is... Just nitrates.
  - d-e-r-e-k 2mo ago
    While your comment is true, it is reductive. While celery seed does in fact contain nitrates which are turned into nitrites, it’s the next step that’s important. Unlike synthetic sodium nitrite, celery seeds contain vitamin C which acts as an antioxidant that converts the nitrites into harmless nitric oxide whereas the synthetic sodium nitrite is converted into harmful nitrosamines. The subtle differences in how our bodies process synthetic vs natural ingredients significantly impacts our bodies and health.
    - gruez 2mo ago
      >celery seeds contain vitamin C which acts as an antioxidant that converts the nitrites into harmless nitric oxide whereas the synthetic sodium nitrite is converted into harmful nitrosamines. This just sounds like post hoc justification. There's hardly any vitamin C in celery seeds[1][2]. Broccoli has 5x the vitamin C per 100g, despite much of it being water. Moreover, if the point is that vitamin C protects against nitrates, why not add vitamin C directly, rather than doing it in a roundabout way by adding celery seeds which also happen to contain vitamin C? [1] https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/food-details/170920/nutrients https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/food-details/170920/nutrients [2] https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/food-details/170379/nutrients https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/food-details/170379/nutrients
      - willy_k 2mo ago
        Maybe because people still want to eat food. The culture of trying to re-engineer life is not it.
        gruez 2mo ago
        >The culture of trying to re-engineer life is not it. What does this even mean? Cured meats (via nitrates or celery seeds) is already an engineered product.
      - d-e-r-e-k 2mo ago
        I’m in no way implying or arguing celery seeds contain a great amount of vitamin C. There are of course many foods that contain more vitamin C than celery seeds. I’m stating that the naturally occurring vitamin C in celery seeds is the key difference between natural and synthetic nitrites. I guess for me it just comes down to going back to basics. Why use multiple synthetic ingredients if a natural alternative exists. There are thousands of synthetic chemicals in the American food supply and we just don’t entirely know how they’re affecting our bodies.
        gruez 2mo ago
        >I’m stating that the naturally occurring vitamin C in celery seeds is the key difference between natural and synthetic nitrites The original comment was about products being misleadingly labeled "nitrate free". The fact that celery seeds might have some mitigating vitamin C doesn't change this, any more than it would still be misleading to label with synthetic nitrates added as "nitrate free" if they also added vitamin C to it. Therefore I still think the tidbit about celery seeds containing vitamin C is post hoc justification. The rest of your comment also seems to confirm this, you think that celery seeds is intrinsically better than nitrates, because it's "natural".
  - gruez 2mo ago
    They can't actually label it "nitrate free", only a superficially sounding term like "no nitrates added", with the hope that people (like you) think it's the same as "nitrate free".
    - amanaplanacanal 2mo ago
      I typically see it labeled "uncured."
      - t0mpr1c3 2mo ago
        That's just the usual US marketing bollocks. Whether it is cured with nitrates or with celery extract, bacon is definitely cured. If it is not cured, it is not bacon. I am more sympathetic to the term "turkey bacon" than "uncured bacon".
- PetitPrince 2mo ago
  Because people like the fish flavor ? Same reason we use tomato paste instead of a MSG + food coloring or parmesan instead of MSG + some protein I would say.
- azath92 2mo ago
  Its also a common misconception that all glutamates are MSG (thats one salt of glutamate) and that all umami compounds are simple glutamate salts. So while MSG is an excellent "neutral" umami ingredient, fermented products like this have a whole host of complex flavors that are often very desirable beyond just their glutamate salt.
- ratelimitsteve 2mo ago
  >I mean, instead of investing so much effort to get glutamate into your food, why not use MSG directly? Because the various uammi sources also add other flavors. I like being able to choose between soy sauce, fish sauce, worcestershire sauce, soy bean paste, mushroom powder, anchovies, chicken powder, yeast extract, and, yes, msg (with 2% i&g) because each of them affects the recipe i'm working with differently. Is your diet nothing but chicken breast, raw flour and shortening because they're the simplest sources of protein, carbs and fat?
- plastic-enjoyer 2mo ago
  > I mean, instead of investing so much effort to get glutamate into your food, why not use MSG directly? HN never disappoints when it comes to bizarre takes.
  - akoboldfrying 2mo ago
    It's a legitimate question. The answer seems to be that the anchovies have a variety of glutamate salts with enjoyably different flavours. If the only glutamate in the anchovies was MSG, or if all the glutamates in them had the same flavour and nutrition properties as MSG -- both of which were open possibilities to me before the discussion GP's question prompted -- then no, there wouldn't be much point using anchovies instead of MSG.
dfxm12 2mo ago
Rotten? Do you have any more info about this product, even a name? Salted anchovies are common in at least Spain, Italy & Portugal (and you usually rinse off the excess salt and optionally store them in olive oil for a while before consuming), but I've never seen a "rotten" anchovy...
- comrade1234 2mo ago
  Instead of "rotten" I should have probably used "fermented". They're dark brown, not dry but not in a liquid, individual anchovies that are starting to fall apart. They smell like a stronger version of fish sauce.
  - wahnfrieden 2mo ago
    Why not just use colatura di alici?
    - dfxm12 2mo ago
      If it's the salted anchovies I'm thinking of what I'm thinking of (like in the yt video in your sibling comment), salted anchovies are a lot cheaper and more versatile (the downside is that more processing is required on your end). Colatura is great in sauces, but you can use whole anchovy filets to make a gilda in addition to adding flavor to a sauce.
    - comrade1234 2mo ago
      I prefer not to cook that because I like the taste of it very much. I use it like Roman soldiers used to use it - a liquid that you put on whatever you're eating, like we use ketchup now. I think the Italian fish sauce is much softer and more refined than Asian fish sauces.
  - actionfromafar 2mo ago
    This but also with pepper corns? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23QDS0xclw4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23QDS0xclw4
UomoNeroNero 2mo ago
Salt-cured anchovies. They're not rotten at all—they're spectacular! They're perfect on pizza, with fresh tomatoes, and in countless other dishes, either rinsed straight from the jar or melted into a sauce while cooking. Where I live (a small seaside town), everyone makes their own jars of salt-cured anchovies. They are traditionally sealed with a loose lid consisting of a slate disc with a stone or other weight on top. They need to mature while still being able to breathe, and they must always remain covered by the proper amount of salt. (The way you describe yours—as extremely smelly and falling apart—doesn't really suggest they're high quality. Normally, a properly cured anchovy should remain almost completely intact, so you can remove the tail and backbone and end up with two whole fillets. The peppercorns are a bit unusual as well.)
- UomoNeroNero 2mo ago
  "...a delicious traditional variation, typical for example of the town of Fuscaldo in Calabria, where small oily fish are layered with salt and whole black peppercorns, or prepared with black pepper and chili peppers..." This is one of the most wonderful things about traditional Italian food: every town has its own version of almost everything. And, of course, everyone passionately defends the idea that theirs is the only truly authentic one, while all the others are inferior imitations. It's part of the fun. Where I live, people actually go on "hunts" for great food. We make yearly trips just to buy a particular product because "only that place makes it perfectly." Then we bring it home, talk about it with family and friends, compare producers, debate which one is best... There's an entire culture built around the pursuit of exceptional food.
  - fy20 2mo ago
    I worked in Rome for a year, and I'd say 70% of my colleuges conversations were this. Where I live now you have 3 places to get things... depending on which supermarket chain you prefer.
- grebc 2mo ago
  >(The way you describe yours—as extremely smelly and falling apart—doesn't really suggest they're high quality. Normally, a properly cured anchovy should remain almost completely intact, so you can remove the tail and backbone and end up with two whole fillets. The peppercorns are a bit unusual as well.) Being a consumer of jarred anchovies available in Australia(likely not the best quality)… I’ve never once gotten a whole fillet out intact!!
4ggr0 2mo ago
For some reason this immediately got me thinking about Garum[0], probably because you mentioned anchovies, salt, umami and glutamates in the same paragraph :D also, as you said chefs must know about this: > Garum remains of interest to food historians and chefs, and has been reintroduced into modern food preparation. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garum

rob74 2mo ago

I mean, instead of investing so much effort to get glutamate into your food, why not use MSG directly? Sounds like much less hassle? Reminds me of the time when Big Food over here in Germany replaced MSG with "yeast extract" so they could claim that their foods contained no artificial flavor enhancers (although the yeast extract also contains a lot of glutamate).

pluralmonad 2mo ago
Like labelling bacon nitrate free while also including celery seed something-or-another that is... Just nitrates.
- d-e-r-e-k 2mo ago
  While your comment is true, it is reductive. While celery seed does in fact contain nitrates which are turned into nitrites, it’s the next step that’s important. Unlike synthetic sodium nitrite, celery seeds contain vitamin C which acts as an antioxidant that converts the nitrites into harmless nitric oxide whereas the synthetic sodium nitrite is converted into harmful nitrosamines. The subtle differences in how our bodies process synthetic vs natural ingredients significantly impacts our bodies and health.
  - gruez 2mo ago
    >celery seeds contain vitamin C which acts as an antioxidant that converts the nitrites into harmless nitric oxide whereas the synthetic sodium nitrite is converted into harmful nitrosamines. This just sounds like post hoc justification. There's hardly any vitamin C in celery seeds[1][2]. Broccoli has 5x the vitamin C per 100g, despite much of it being water. Moreover, if the point is that vitamin C protects against nitrates, why not add vitamin C directly, rather than doing it in a roundabout way by adding celery seeds which also happen to contain vitamin C? [1] https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/food-details/170920/nutrients https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/food-details/170920/nutrients [2] https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/food-details/170379/nutrients https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/food-details/170379/nutrients
    - willy_k 2mo ago
      Maybe because people still want to eat food. The culture of trying to re-engineer life is not it.
      - gruez 2mo ago
        >The culture of trying to re-engineer life is not it. What does this even mean? Cured meats (via nitrates or celery seeds) is already an engineered product.
    - d-e-r-e-k 2mo ago
      I’m in no way implying or arguing celery seeds contain a great amount of vitamin C. There are of course many foods that contain more vitamin C than celery seeds. I’m stating that the naturally occurring vitamin C in celery seeds is the key difference between natural and synthetic nitrites. I guess for me it just comes down to going back to basics. Why use multiple synthetic ingredients if a natural alternative exists. There are thousands of synthetic chemicals in the American food supply and we just don’t entirely know how they’re affecting our bodies.
      - gruez 2mo ago
        >I’m stating that the naturally occurring vitamin C in celery seeds is the key difference between natural and synthetic nitrites The original comment was about products being misleadingly labeled "nitrate free". The fact that celery seeds might have some mitigating vitamin C doesn't change this, any more than it would still be misleading to label with synthetic nitrates added as "nitrate free" if they also added vitamin C to it. Therefore I still think the tidbit about celery seeds containing vitamin C is post hoc justification. The rest of your comment also seems to confirm this, you think that celery seeds is intrinsically better than nitrates, because it's "natural".
- gruez 2mo ago
  They can't actually label it "nitrate free", only a superficially sounding term like "no nitrates added", with the hope that people (like you) think it's the same as "nitrate free".
  - amanaplanacanal 2mo ago
    I typically see it labeled "uncured."
    - t0mpr1c3 2mo ago
      That's just the usual US marketing bollocks. Whether it is cured with nitrates or with celery extract, bacon is definitely cured. If it is not cured, it is not bacon. I am more sympathetic to the term "turkey bacon" than "uncured bacon".
PetitPrince 2mo ago
Because people like the fish flavor ? Same reason we use tomato paste instead of a MSG + food coloring or parmesan instead of MSG + some protein I would say.
azath92 2mo ago
Its also a common misconception that all glutamates are MSG (thats one salt of glutamate) and that all umami compounds are simple glutamate salts. So while MSG is an excellent "neutral" umami ingredient, fermented products like this have a whole host of complex flavors that are often very desirable beyond just their glutamate salt.
ratelimitsteve 2mo ago
>I mean, instead of investing so much effort to get glutamate into your food, why not use MSG directly? Because the various uammi sources also add other flavors. I like being able to choose between soy sauce, fish sauce, worcestershire sauce, soy bean paste, mushroom powder, anchovies, chicken powder, yeast extract, and, yes, msg (with 2% i&g) because each of them affects the recipe i'm working with differently. Is your diet nothing but chicken breast, raw flour and shortening because they're the simplest sources of protein, carbs and fat?
plastic-enjoyer 2mo ago
> I mean, instead of investing so much effort to get glutamate into your food, why not use MSG directly? HN never disappoints when it comes to bizarre takes.
- akoboldfrying 2mo ago
  It's a legitimate question. The answer seems to be that the anchovies have a variety of glutamate salts with enjoyably different flavours. If the only glutamate in the anchovies was MSG, or if all the glutamates in them had the same flavour and nutrition properties as MSG -- both of which were open possibilities to me before the discussion GP's question prompted -- then no, there wouldn't be much point using anchovies instead of MSG.

dfxm12 2mo ago

Rotten? Do you have any more info about this product, even a name? Salted anchovies are common in at least Spain, Italy & Portugal (and you usually rinse off the excess salt and optionally store them in olive oil for a while before consuming), but I've never seen a "rotten" anchovy...

comrade1234 2mo ago
Instead of "rotten" I should have probably used "fermented". They're dark brown, not dry but not in a liquid, individual anchovies that are starting to fall apart. They smell like a stronger version of fish sauce.
- wahnfrieden 2mo ago
  Why not just use colatura di alici?
  - dfxm12 2mo ago
    If it's the salted anchovies I'm thinking of what I'm thinking of (like in the yt video in your sibling comment), salted anchovies are a lot cheaper and more versatile (the downside is that more processing is required on your end). Colatura is great in sauces, but you can use whole anchovy filets to make a gilda in addition to adding flavor to a sauce.
  - comrade1234 2mo ago
    I prefer not to cook that because I like the taste of it very much. I use it like Roman soldiers used to use it - a liquid that you put on whatever you're eating, like we use ketchup now. I think the Italian fish sauce is much softer and more refined than Asian fish sauces.
- actionfromafar 2mo ago
  This but also with pepper corns? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23QDS0xclw4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23QDS0xclw4

UomoNeroNero 2mo ago

Salt-cured anchovies. They're not rotten at all—they're spectacular! They're perfect on pizza, with fresh tomatoes, and in countless other dishes, either rinsed straight from the jar or melted into a sauce while cooking. Where I live (a small seaside town), everyone makes their own jars of salt-cured anchovies. They are traditionally sealed with a loose lid consisting of a slate disc with a stone or other weight on top. They need to mature while still being able to breathe, and they must always remain covered by the proper amount of salt. (The way you describe yours—as extremely smelly and falling apart—doesn't really suggest they're high quality. Normally, a properly cured anchovy should remain almost completely intact, so you can remove the tail and backbone and end up with two whole fillets. The peppercorns are a bit unusual as well.)

UomoNeroNero 2mo ago
"...a delicious traditional variation, typical for example of the town of Fuscaldo in Calabria, where small oily fish are layered with salt and whole black peppercorns, or prepared with black pepper and chili peppers..." This is one of the most wonderful things about traditional Italian food: every town has its own version of almost everything. And, of course, everyone passionately defends the idea that theirs is the only truly authentic one, while all the others are inferior imitations. It's part of the fun. Where I live, people actually go on "hunts" for great food. We make yearly trips just to buy a particular product because "only that place makes it perfectly." Then we bring it home, talk about it with family and friends, compare producers, debate which one is best... There's an entire culture built around the pursuit of exceptional food.
- fy20 2mo ago
  I worked in Rome for a year, and I'd say 70% of my colleuges conversations were this. Where I live now you have 3 places to get things... depending on which supermarket chain you prefer.
grebc 2mo ago
>(The way you describe yours—as extremely smelly and falling apart—doesn't really suggest they're high quality. Normally, a properly cured anchovy should remain almost completely intact, so you can remove the tail and backbone and end up with two whole fillets. The peppercorns are a bit unusual as well.) Being a consumer of jarred anchovies available in Australia(likely not the best quality)… I’ve never once gotten a whole fillet out intact!!

4ggr0 2mo ago

For some reason this immediately got me thinking about Garum[0], probably because you mentioned anchovies, salt, umami and glutamates in the same paragraph :D also, as you said chefs must know about this: > Garum remains of interest to food historians and chefs, and has been reintroduced into modern food preparation. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garum