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There is a chance there wasn’t anything incriminating. The top guys kept conversations live or intimated they wanted something done; the lowers took the plannin

There is a chance there wasn’t anything incriminating. The top guys kept conversations live or intimated they wanted something done; the lowers took the planning and execution upon themselves.

lenerdenator 3mo ago
I'm not a lawyer, but isn't RICO meant to give a way to prosecute those who are at the top of organizations that have people committing crimes like this?
ChrisMarshallNY 3mo ago
Mobsters have it down to an art. "You take care of it." means "Murder him and dump the body into a building foundation." "I don't see any problems." can mean "The ambush will happen at the scheduled time. Vinnie will clean up the bodies." etc. You'll also see a lot of politicians using "dog whistle" statements, that are interpreted by listeners to mean something entirely different from the stated words.
- Scramblejams 3mo ago
  A good fictional example of this I often think of: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH5j9RHCBpM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH5j9RHCBpM
  - ChrisMarshallNY 3mo ago
    Dealing with turbulence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_no_one_rid_me_of_this_turbulent_priest%3F https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_no_one_rid_me_of_this_tur...
- JumpCrisscross 3mo ago
  > Mobsters have it down to an art Non-mobsters aren’t always as careful. There is a good chance these guys just weren’t properly investigated.
- nixon_why69 3mo ago
  That's assuming they're wiretapped. For corporate comms, just remember that email is discoverable while video calls typically aren't even retained. Be as explicit as you want, especially if you can rope a lawyer into the call and claim it's privileged.
  - xnx 3mo ago
    Would be interesting if automatic AI transcripts change this.
    - literallyroy 3mo ago
      Only unintentionally. I know for some unnamed companies any calls containing executives, the Zoom AI transcripts cannot be enabled.
- breakpointalpha 3mo ago
  "Stand back and stand by."
alexpotato 3mo ago
Wasn't the strategy of Mafia bosses to say something vague like "I sure wish that guy would go away". It was implicit that they wanted someone killed but if brought up in court they could say "I was just expressing an opinion, not giving an order"
- tempest_ 3mo ago
  If by mafia you mean English Crown sure.
- teamonkey 3mo ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_no_one_rid_me_of_this_turbulent_priest%3F https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_no_one_rid_me_of_this_tur...
- iamflimflam1 3mo ago
  https://youtu.be/c8TnSFyzLn4 https://youtu.be/c8TnSFyzLn4
siva7 3mo ago
Yup, i've worked long enough with senior mgmt to know that anything of interest for prosecution won't be written down, especially not on company devices. Those making the mistakes of writing things down are those actually prosecuted, the ranks and files.
- JumpCrisscross 3mo ago
  > anything of interest for prosecution won't be written down, especially not on company devices This vastly overestimates the opsec of most tech executives.
  - Breza 3mo ago
    In my own experience, the brass sets the culture and expectations that encourage department heads to break the law. Certainly there are done CEOs explicitly commanding people to do crime, but it's more common to tell people to, eg, move fast, focus on profits, and do whatever needs to get done.
  - lovich 3mo ago
    I was told to do something that was a crime by my line level manager at a tech company when I was only a few years in my career, with code that he hand wrote and wanted me to type in and commit under my name. When I refused he called me into a 1:1 and verbally told me I would be losing my job if I didn’t and only backed off when I told him he was never getting that paper back and asked if he wanted to go HR right now at which point I would be going to legal and didn’t care if I lost my job as long as he was implicated. Only time in my career it’s happened, but it happens.
    - collingreen 3mo ago
      That's a terrible situation, especially for someone early in their career. Glad you stood your ground and had some hard evidence to back you up.
  - armada651 3mo ago
    It's standard policy at most major corporations even for low-level employees to not discuss anything legally sensitive over company e-mail or chat.
baranul 3mo ago
But it's mind-boggling that any subordinate couldn't understand that such levels of depravity and insanity could land them in legal trouble, and that's besides the ethical issue.
- breakpointalpha 3mo ago
  I think they fully understood, which is why they all got jail sentences.
davidwritesbugs 3mo ago
“Will no-one rid me of this turbulent priest?”
tty456 3mo ago
Those are some very Senior lowers

There is a chance there wasn’t anything incriminating. The top guys kept conversations live or intimated they wanted something done; the lowers took the planning and execution upon themselves.

lenerdenator 3mo ago

I'm not a lawyer, but isn't RICO meant to give a way to prosecute those who are at the top of organizations that have people committing crimes like this?

ChrisMarshallNY 3mo ago

Mobsters have it down to an art. "You take care of it." means "Murder him and dump the body into a building foundation." "I don't see any problems." can mean "The ambush will happen at the scheduled time. Vinnie will clean up the bodies." etc. You'll also see a lot of politicians using "dog whistle" statements, that are interpreted by listeners to mean something entirely different from the stated words.

Scramblejams 3mo ago
A good fictional example of this I often think of: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH5j9RHCBpM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH5j9RHCBpM
- ChrisMarshallNY 3mo ago
  Dealing with turbulence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_no_one_rid_me_of_this_turbulent_priest%3F https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_no_one_rid_me_of_this_tur...
JumpCrisscross 3mo ago
> Mobsters have it down to an art Non-mobsters aren’t always as careful. There is a good chance these guys just weren’t properly investigated.
nixon_why69 3mo ago
That's assuming they're wiretapped. For corporate comms, just remember that email is discoverable while video calls typically aren't even retained. Be as explicit as you want, especially if you can rope a lawyer into the call and claim it's privileged.
- xnx 3mo ago
  Would be interesting if automatic AI transcripts change this.
  - literallyroy 3mo ago
    Only unintentionally. I know for some unnamed companies any calls containing executives, the Zoom AI transcripts cannot be enabled.
breakpointalpha 3mo ago
"Stand back and stand by."

alexpotato 3mo ago

Wasn't the strategy of Mafia bosses to say something vague like "I sure wish that guy would go away". It was implicit that they wanted someone killed but if brought up in court they could say "I was just expressing an opinion, not giving an order"

tempest_ 3mo ago
If by mafia you mean English Crown sure.
teamonkey 3mo ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_no_one_rid_me_of_this_turbulent_priest%3F https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_no_one_rid_me_of_this_tur...
iamflimflam1 3mo ago
https://youtu.be/c8TnSFyzLn4 https://youtu.be/c8TnSFyzLn4

siva7 3mo ago

Yup, i've worked long enough with senior mgmt to know that anything of interest for prosecution won't be written down, especially not on company devices. Those making the mistakes of writing things down are those actually prosecuted, the ranks and files.

JumpCrisscross 3mo ago
> anything of interest for prosecution won't be written down, especially not on company devices This vastly overestimates the opsec of most tech executives.
- Breza 3mo ago
  In my own experience, the brass sets the culture and expectations that encourage department heads to break the law. Certainly there are done CEOs explicitly commanding people to do crime, but it's more common to tell people to, eg, move fast, focus on profits, and do whatever needs to get done.
- lovich 3mo ago
  I was told to do something that was a crime by my line level manager at a tech company when I was only a few years in my career, with code that he hand wrote and wanted me to type in and commit under my name. When I refused he called me into a 1:1 and verbally told me I would be losing my job if I didn’t and only backed off when I told him he was never getting that paper back and asked if he wanted to go HR right now at which point I would be going to legal and didn’t care if I lost my job as long as he was implicated. Only time in my career it’s happened, but it happens.
  - collingreen 3mo ago
    That's a terrible situation, especially for someone early in their career. Glad you stood your ground and had some hard evidence to back you up.
- armada651 3mo ago
  It's standard policy at most major corporations even for low-level employees to not discuss anything legally sensitive over company e-mail or chat.

baranul 3mo ago

But it's mind-boggling that any subordinate couldn't understand that such levels of depravity and insanity could land them in legal trouble, and that's besides the ethical issue.

breakpointalpha 3mo ago
I think they fully understood, which is why they all got jail sentences.

davidwritesbugs 3mo ago

“Will no-one rid me of this turbulent priest?”

tty456 3mo ago

Those are some very Senior lowers