5 ms·

> deserves what they get American voters exist in an environment of propaganda addiction, with every piece of their personal technology reinforcing and profiti

by btown 2mo ago

> deserves what they get American voters exist in an environment of propaganda addiction, with every piece of their personal technology reinforcing and profiting from said addiction, that has never existed before. I have great empathy and understanding for those who are bombarded by voices that are actively manipulating them for engagement, and I believe this empathy is key to understanding if, and how, a landscape of echo chambers can nonetheless result in a sustainable and balanced future. (edit: see below for my response about the limits of this)

SpicyLemonZest 2mo ago
Understanding, absolutely. None of us are immune from propaganda, and most of us have at one time or another been swayed by selective arguments and echo chambers to behave poorly. I don’t like that you have empathy for people who are right this second steering the government in a project of performative cruelty against me. I think you should withhold your empathy until they’ve been stopped and appropriately punished for their misdeeds.
- deleted 2mo ago
  [deleted]
- btown 2mo ago
  To be very clear: there's a difference between the people shaping/benefiting from/profiting from this system, and those being shaped by it. And, without sharing too much personal info, I am very much one of those being attacked by such a project of performative cruelty, and far too many people I know and love have suffered - and the architects of these projects must not escape accountability. But I have to believe that a sizable number of people exist out there: the ones who have not carpetbagged on the ragebait economy, but who have been the ones taken down an algorithmic video-feed rabbit hole primed because of the news channel playing at their workplace or words of hatred shared by a community leader... that this person has been taught to fear rather than understand, that that person still has the innate capacity to understand, and that a future can be built on that capacity.
- iamnothere 2mo ago
  Surely punishing the people will make them vote for us!
  - estearum 2mo ago
    Do you think justice should only be dealt out when you think it'll generate a positive outcome for you personally on the other side? Seems to me that people who have committed crimes should be punished for those crimes. Call it "LAW AND ORDER!!!!" or something
    - iamnothere 2mo ago
      I think that winning (and retaining political advantage over time) is probably a prerequisite for enacting any punishments, much less correcting other issues.
      - estearum 2mo ago
        Uhhhh... sure...? Are you implying that "the other side" will never again hold power? Because that's a very silly view, if so. I'm quite sure the single most popular platform someone could run on today is simply "aggressively prosecute every single crime committed by the MAGA apparatus."
        iamnothere 2mo ago
        Punitive campaigns seem to work best with the right wing base. There’s a large squishy center (and a sizable segment of the left) that doesn’t vote when things go too negative. If you want to contrast with a real world example, Obama won as an unknown candidate running on “hope and change” despite racial bias. But it’s probably better to lose if presenting a positive message would make you feel icky.
        estearum 2mo ago
        All available evidence points toward my claim: Americans don't really agree on how they want the future to look. However, they do agree on how they don't want it to look. The rampant corruption, state brutality, and criminality of MAGA is unpopular across the board.
- anonymars 2mo ago
  Are you perhaps mixing up empathy and sympathy?
  - SpicyLemonZest 2mo ago
    No, it's the idea of "getting in their minds" and understanding what their perspective must be from the inside that I object to. It's not the right time for that. If a bully starts punching the guy who lives one house north of me, I need you to help get the bully off of him, not start theorizing about why bullies act this way and why people might support them.
    - anonymars 2mo ago
      Who is the singular bully in this analogy? It seems to me the choice is between "civil war" and "influencing people to vote differently" -- the latter of which requires understanding them (for example, the common theme seems to be screaming "change, any change")
      - SpicyLemonZest 2mo ago
        It seems to you incorrectly. The President of the United States is going to declare a civil war when he loses the 2028 election, perhaps as soon when his party loses the 2026 election. There's no choice we have in that, only in how we respond.
FireBeyond 2mo ago
> I believe this empathy is key to understanding if, and how, a landscape of echo chambers can nonetheless result in a sustainable and balanced future. That ship has sailed. This administration is reinforcing that it is okay, even something to be celebrated, to be doing violence to those that they dislike, for whatever reasons. It is not mere parroting of propaganda that is the concern, but the consequences thereof. There is no "sustainable and balanced future" in that. I have had arguments on this very site where I've been told that -I- and others like me are at fault. At fault for having exhausted tolerance for people peddling things like "after-birth abortions" (Did you know that in some Democrat states you can have an abortion up to 30 days after the baby is born?!?) and similar absolute garbage. Not even "differences of opinion or perspective". I've been told endlessly, "Maybe I need to put more effort into why they think or feel that way?" That won't work, because I'll be the only one. It's never "maybe they should think about why I think that's absolutely ridiculous". There's no effort on critical reasoning or discourse that will work there, because it's not grounded in reason in the first place. And when that comes up, crickets. But no, keep going high, keep working on empathy for people who actively celebrate LE shooting people, a President that will say from the Resolute Desk in the Oval Office, quote, "My kids are insider trading all the time". That ship has sailed. I'm not sure where it goes from here, but my fear is somewhere even uglier.
lazide 2mo ago
The issue here is that mindset is exactly what enables their continued behavior. How many ‘DUI’s are acceptable? How many innocents dying will be ignored? Enabling an addict makes you (in my opinion) just as culpable in the outcomes as they are.
mindslight 2mo ago
I am certainly willing to accept, and empathize with, people being bombarded by political propaganda that leads them to stupid ideas. There is no shortage of this, across all political stripes. What I will decidedly not accept is when people steadfastly refuse to listen to their fellow citizens' criticisms of their chosen propaganda, but instead go on the offensive attacking anyone who deviates from it - even when people are trying to engage with them using their own stated preferences regarding morals, rights, economics, etc! This is the highly toxic dynamic underlying the actual division, and is exactly what enables the negative-sum con job based around vice signalling.

by btown 2mo ago

SpicyLemonZest 2mo ago

Understanding, absolutely. None of us are immune from propaganda, and most of us have at one time or another been swayed by selective arguments and echo chambers to behave poorly. I don’t like that you have empathy for people who are right this second steering the government in a project of performative cruelty against me. I think you should withhold your empathy until they’ve been stopped and appropriately punished for their misdeeds.

deleted 2mo ago
[deleted]
btown 2mo ago
To be very clear: there's a difference between the people shaping/benefiting from/profiting from this system, and those being shaped by it. And, without sharing too much personal info, I am very much one of those being attacked by such a project of performative cruelty, and far too many people I know and love have suffered - and the architects of these projects must not escape accountability. But I have to believe that a sizable number of people exist out there: the ones who have not carpetbagged on the ragebait economy, but who have been the ones taken down an algorithmic video-feed rabbit hole primed because of the news channel playing at their workplace or words of hatred shared by a community leader... that this person has been taught to fear rather than understand, that that person still has the innate capacity to understand, and that a future can be built on that capacity.
iamnothere 2mo ago
Surely punishing the people will make them vote for us!
- estearum 2mo ago
  Do you think justice should only be dealt out when you think it'll generate a positive outcome for you personally on the other side? Seems to me that people who have committed crimes should be punished for those crimes. Call it "LAW AND ORDER!!!!" or something
  - iamnothere 2mo ago
    I think that winning (and retaining political advantage over time) is probably a prerequisite for enacting any punishments, much less correcting other issues.
    - estearum 2mo ago
      Uhhhh... sure...? Are you implying that "the other side" will never again hold power? Because that's a very silly view, if so. I'm quite sure the single most popular platform someone could run on today is simply "aggressively prosecute every single crime committed by the MAGA apparatus."
      - iamnothere 2mo ago
        Punitive campaigns seem to work best with the right wing base. There’s a large squishy center (and a sizable segment of the left) that doesn’t vote when things go too negative. If you want to contrast with a real world example, Obama won as an unknown candidate running on “hope and change” despite racial bias. But it’s probably better to lose if presenting a positive message would make you feel icky.
        estearum 2mo ago
        All available evidence points toward my claim: Americans don't really agree on how they want the future to look. However, they do agree on how they don't want it to look. The rampant corruption, state brutality, and criminality of MAGA is unpopular across the board.
anonymars 2mo ago
Are you perhaps mixing up empathy and sympathy?
- SpicyLemonZest 2mo ago
  No, it's the idea of "getting in their minds" and understanding what their perspective must be from the inside that I object to. It's not the right time for that. If a bully starts punching the guy who lives one house north of me, I need you to help get the bully off of him, not start theorizing about why bullies act this way and why people might support them.
  - anonymars 2mo ago
    Who is the singular bully in this analogy? It seems to me the choice is between "civil war" and "influencing people to vote differently" -- the latter of which requires understanding them (for example, the common theme seems to be screaming "change, any change")
    - SpicyLemonZest 2mo ago
      It seems to you incorrectly. The President of the United States is going to declare a civil war when he loses the 2028 election, perhaps as soon when his party loses the 2026 election. There's no choice we have in that, only in how we respond.

FireBeyond 2mo ago

> I believe this empathy is key to understanding if, and how, a landscape of echo chambers can nonetheless result in a sustainable and balanced future. That ship has sailed. This administration is reinforcing that it is okay, even something to be celebrated, to be doing violence to those that they dislike, for whatever reasons. It is not mere parroting of propaganda that is the concern, but the consequences thereof. There is no "sustainable and balanced future" in that. I have had arguments on this very site where I've been told that -I- and others like me are at fault. At fault for having exhausted tolerance for people peddling things like "after-birth abortions" (Did you know that in some Democrat states you can have an abortion up to 30 days after the baby is born?!?) and similar absolute garbage. Not even "differences of opinion or perspective". I've been told endlessly, "Maybe I need to put more effort into why they think or feel that way?" That won't work, because I'll be the only one. It's never "maybe they should think about why I think that's absolutely ridiculous". There's no effort on critical reasoning or discourse that will work there, because it's not grounded in reason in the first place. And when that comes up, crickets. But no, keep going high, keep working on empathy for people who actively celebrate LE shooting people, a President that will say from the Resolute Desk in the Oval Office, quote, "My kids are insider trading all the time". That ship has sailed. I'm not sure where it goes from here, but my fear is somewhere even uglier.

lazide 2mo ago

The issue here is that mindset is exactly what enables their continued behavior. How many ‘DUI’s are acceptable? How many innocents dying will be ignored? Enabling an addict makes you (in my opinion) just as culpable in the outcomes as they are.

mindslight 2mo ago

I am certainly willing to accept, and empathize with, people being bombarded by political propaganda that leads them to stupid ideas. There is no shortage of this, across all political stripes. What I will decidedly not accept is when people steadfastly refuse to listen to their fellow citizens' criticisms of their chosen propaganda, but instead go on the offensive attacking anyone who deviates from it - even when people are trying to engage with them using their own stated preferences regarding morals, rights, economics, etc! This is the highly toxic dynamic underlying the actual division, and is exactly what enables the negative-sum con job based around vice signalling.