7 ms·

I see this sentiment often, but only when it comes to autism. How is this different from other disorders, disabilities, illnesses? You could make the exact sam

I see this sentiment often, but only when it comes to autism. How is this different from other disorders, disabilities, illnesses? You could make the exact same arguments for blindness. Every day is challenging, difficulties are mostly a consequence of how we've structured society, it's other people who should accommodate those who have different needs, etc. This narrative seems to originate from, and is perpetuated within online autism communities. I think it's great that people feel content with the way they are but I don't understand the animosity towards a mere suggestion that a cure should exist. I'm familiar with the history behind it and I'm on high alert when someone ventures into eugenics, however I firmly believe that we should be looking for a cure, just like we do for every other illness and disorder.

jimnotgym 3mo ago
Because many autistic people have superpowers in some areas, like systems thinking, thinking outside the box and maybe suprisingly reading people. If you had a superpower, but it came with a curse, that you couldn't always get to work on time, would you trade it in for a normal life? On the other hand, i don't see why a company wouldn't accommodate someone's minor quirks to get access to a superpower.
- dns_snek 3mo ago
  I'm well aware and I don't have a problem with you or anyone else living life the way you want. This doesn't explain animosity towards treatment/cure research.
  - jimnotgym 3mo ago
    Does it not? When you 'cure' the lateness you lose the superpower too. Now you have another boring normie doing a workmanlike job. I think the reason for the animosity is the assumption that it is it a disease or disorder in the first place. It presumes that rather than being different, it is wrong. Perhaps what is wrong, is neurotypical people insisting that the more gifted people have to be bent and twisted and forced to conform to the world as they want it. Perhaps because their boring and unimaginative minds can't stand the idea that someone else could lead a different life to them. Or, and have heard this, they are annoyed that the talented person with different needs gets to come in late some days... and they feel they are missing out themselves on a lie-in.
    - dns_snek 3mo ago
      No it doesn't explain the animosity because nobody is forcing you to take the cure, but there are people who desperately want a cure.
      - jimnotgym 3mo ago
        Are they desperate for the cure, because they are forced to work with people can't accept them for who they are? Because they are exhausted from years of masking, because you can't succeed unless you fit in? Do they desperately want the 'cure'? Or do they want the problem of fitting in to a normie world to go away?
        dns_snek 3mo ago
        That's a philosophical question that doesn't help people who are suffering. People are alive here and now. Some people will want a cure regardless. And we'll never have a society that's perfectly inclusive and understanding enough of all disorders, so it's just wishful thinking.
        jimnotgym 3mo ago
        They won't get a cure, because autism is not a disease. It reminds me of the idea that 'curing' people's homosexuality would make them happier. Turns out it is not possible, but in the civilised world we made things so much better for them by just not being shitty and oppressive.
        dns_snek 3mo ago
        Not this shit again. I don't care whether you call it a cure, a treatment leading to complete improvement of all symptoms, a therapy that rids them of their problems, or a magic happiness potion. You can discuss the philosophy of these decisions all day long but at the end of the day, you don't get to tell other people what to do. You're no different from the "pro-life" crowd who want to ban abortion based on simplistic and idealistic view of the world. When you berate people who are asking for more treatment options, you're not just expressing your preference, you're also trying to control theirs. My patience on this has truly run out.
ssl-3 3mo ago
> I see this sentiment often, but only when it comes to autism. How is this different from other disorders, disabilities, illnesses? These are not equivalent, synonymous terms. I think that your premise might need some work. There's plenty of people in the world who are healthy, autistic, and not disabled at all.
- dns_snek 3mo ago
  I know they're not synonymous, that's why I used all 3 and not just one.
  - ssl-3 3mo ago
    That may be what was meant, but that's not how it was written.
    - dns_snek 3mo ago
      It was written fine. ASD is a disorder which was the first item on that list. You could make the same type of argument about disabilities (e.g. deafness) and someone pointed out that people make the same arguments in the deaf community too.
      - ssl-3 3mo ago
        Words mean things.
        dns_snek 3mo ago
        And my words in no way implied that those were equal, or that autism was necessarily an illness or a disability. People often make those arguments and I'm not one of them. You're attacking a straw man.
        ssl-3 3mo ago
        sigh. > I see this sentiment often, but only when it comes to autism. How is this different from other disorders, disabilities, illnesses? We have a comparative question involving a list of things, here. Let's unroll the list and make separate comparative questions instead: autism. How is this different from other disorders? This works. Autism is a disorder. It can be compared to other disorders. autism. How is this different from other disabilities? This doesn't work. The comparison rests upon the implication that autism must be a disability, but that's just not absolute. It certainly can be disabling, but it often is not disabling. autism. How is this different from other illnesses? This doesn't work. Autism is not an illness.
stonyrubbish 3mo ago
> How is this different from other disorders, disabilities, illnesses? Part of the confusion here is that autism isn't straightforwardly a disability. A plurality of people with autism are ASD-1, which is the kind requiring the least support needs while, purely empirically speaking, conferring lots of well-documented benefits. The sort of elephant in the room in these conversations is that there are lots of replicable studies which show that autistic people outperform non-autistic people in a variety of areas. The idea of attempting to engineer the removal of a class of people from society-- people with unique strengths which are necessary for the functioning of that society-- has consequences that are significantly less well-understood than proponents of this idea make it out to be.
- dns_snek 3mo ago
  I agree up until this point: > The idea of attempting to engineer the removal of a class of people from society-- people with unique strengths which are necessary for the functioning of that society-- has consequences that are significantly less well-understood than proponents of this idea make it out to be. I'll be the first to pick up my pitchforks at anyone who suggests non-consensual treatments. My point is that trying to find a cure for something is different from trying to eradicate people from a gene pool. In fact, I would assume that having an effective treatment/cure for autism would make it more widespread, not less. People who were cured of their ASD-related deficits would be far more likely to find a partner and have kids, and those kids would inherit genes which are responsible for ASD.
  - tavavex 3mo ago
    You don't need a big bad government or other outside entity to have non-consensual treatments. Just make it available to parents, who can make decisions for their children regardless of their wishes or any nuances of the situation. They won't allow kids to grow up and choose for themselves. Does being autistic decrease your chances of finding a partner? That feels like something that should be substantiated, because although it feels logical that a deficiency in communication would lead to this, in reality I just see autistic people seeking each other explicitly or even subconsciously by being inclined toward their own traits. I think a stronger argument is that there are more severe instances of autism that are disabling while providing few benefits of 'mild' or 'normal' autism.
inigyou 3mo ago
It isn't unique. Deaf people fight against research to cure hearing loss and fight against people having it cured, as they say it's betraying the deaf community.
- dns_snek 3mo ago
  That's interesting, I didn't know about that!
- anon48293 3mo ago
  Fortunately most of their criticism falls on deaf ears.
47282847 3mo ago
> How is this different from other disorders, disabilities, illnesses? Not diagnosed autistic myself, but I buy into the argument that a lot of “(mental) disorders” make one allergic to the amount of subtle and less subtle daily dose of interrelational violence. Plenty of drugs exist to numb organisms. I don’t know if you’ve ever been on antidepressants or antipsychotics, but one who has might relate that that kind of “cure” means to turn you into a “functioning zombie”. One may prefer the suffering and ability to fight and point out violent behavior rather than a medically-induced zoning out. Our societies are far from “healthy”. What is “disordered” is how we treat ourselves and others. It’s up to each one individually to decide how much they want to be part of this “normal” or whether they prefer to be “disordered” even if it comes with certain limitations. ”It Is No Measure of Health To Be Well-Adjusted to a Profoundly Sick Society” (Krishnamurti) See e.g. Hughes, K., Bellis, M. A., Hardcastle, K. A., Sethi, D., Butchart, A., Mikton, C., Jones, L., & Dunne, M. P. (2017). The effect of multiple adverse childhood experiences on health: A systematic review and meta-analysis. The Lancet Public Health, 2(8), e356–e366. https://doi.org/10.1016/S2468-2667(17)30118-4 https://doi.org/10.1016/S2468-2667(17)30118-4
- cindyllm 3mo ago
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- thrownphone 3mo ago
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- dns_snek 3mo ago
  > It’s up to each one individually to decide how much they want to be part of this “normal” or whether they prefer to be “disordered” even if it comes with certain limitations. I completely agree. And I've never been on antidepressants but I take Concerta (stimulant) for ADHD and I've heard many say that they feel like zombies on stimulants. I've never felt like a zombie, it just takes the "edge" off by making it easier to get started and get things done, makes me slightly better organized, etc. I think it sucks that some people don't respond well to medication. It's also a given that the freedom to decide on what to do with your body is an enshrined, essential human right. The problem I have is this: Just like I don't tell them what to do, I expect that they wouldn't berate me for taking the treatment, and for asking for better ones.. yet they do. When I cheer on the research for a cure, because I want it, for myself, I always get antagonized by the "superpower" crowd, get interrogated under the presumption I'm the second coming of Hitler, get told that I don't really want it, it's just the society making me say that (1. not true; 2. Gee, thanks)... It just never ends and I'm officially out of patience entertaining it. The other responses to my comments in this thread are a good example of that
catchnear4321 3mo ago
treating the dsm like a checklist of cures to complete sounds a bit like what might go in the dsm
- dns_snek 3mo ago
  If you try to reformulate that snarky one-liner that into a good faith argument you'll see how ridiculous it sounds. Yes, actually we should have treatments and cures available for anyone who wants them, for anything inside and outside the DSM.
  - catchnear4321 3mo ago
    it was a snarky one-liner made in good faith. you put words in my mouth by suggesting i am against treatments, or cures, but that’s not really your point.
julianlam 3mo ago
Spot on. The same arguments pop up when new therapies are unveiled for various sightedness disorders, hearing impairment, etc. How _dare_ you impugn upon my identity that has been reinforced through my upbringing constantly? Etc.
Scandiravian 3mo ago
OP here The main issue I see with this line of thinking is that there is an underlying/implicit assumption that there is something wrong with being autistic Society has the mental disorders it creates, i.e. autism is only viewed as a disorder because it doesn't fit into the societal structures we have built Not long ago being gay was considered a mental disorder - should we try to find a cure for homosexuality? Most neurotypical people who I see argue for "a cure" want one because they don't want a society where there is room for people who experience the world in a different way and therefore have different views than themselves Said more plainly, they're bigots and they have no qualms berating, scolding, and making fun of an autistic person until said person believes they are actually in need of fixing. If someone who faces discrimination and bullying every day asked to be "cured", are they actually making an informed choice or are they being forced by society? There is nothing wrong with being autistic and it shouldn't be necessary for myself and other autistic people to justify our existence based on things like economic output As I pointed out in my original post, I am conflicted about the potential for a "cure". For asd-3 it could potentially be revolutionary in terms of quality of life, but with the discrimination I myself experience and what I hear from other autistic people, not to mention the political situation around the world, I do not trust that this will actually be used to help us. It would be used to control us because other people somehow believe we're broken
- dns_snek 3mo ago
  There's nothing wrong with being autistic, that's not my assumption and I don't want to "fix" anyone. You're preaching to the choir about the bigots and you're right to be skeptical. I'd never trust anyone who campaigns against autism the way RFK Jr. did (for example). He's clearly just using autism as a political pawn and whatever their underlying motivation might be, I know they that their real intentions are impure so any research they touch is automatically tainted. Hopefully that clarifies my position on this? On the flip side I strongly support real scientific research into the treatments of all causes of human suffering, one of them being autism. To put it simply before diving deeper: Regardless of everything else, I support research into these treatments/cures because there are people who desperately want them, and because their lives would be saved/drastically improved if they had them. --- A plurality of people with autism experience crisis-level distress. It's been a while since I looked at the research, but from what I remember, the rate of suicidal ideation is worse for people who have a lower level of impairment/support needs. The rate of suicide among people with autism is something like ~5x higher and in some subgroups (lower support needs, comorbid disorders) I believe it's even higher than that - closer to ~10x. That is why I want there to be a cure for autism, and ADHD, and every ailment that exists. Without it many people experience so much suffering that they have little choice but to kill themselves. --- I have ADHD so these sorts of discussions affect me directly. People frequently call it a superpower and talk about how great it is. Public discussion is inherently biased towards perspectives of those who are least affected since they participate more and communicate clearly. The net effect is that people who suffer the least have the loudest voices, they simultaneously reject the idea of treatment without consideration for those who have it worse, and they tend to antagonize people who are worse off for merely suggesting that the disorder is something that anyone would want to get rid of. I hope you can see how that's problematic?
cindyllm 3mo ago
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jimnotgym 3mo ago

Because many autistic people have superpowers in some areas, like systems thinking, thinking outside the box and maybe suprisingly reading people. If you had a superpower, but it came with a curse, that you couldn't always get to work on time, would you trade it in for a normal life? On the other hand, i don't see why a company wouldn't accommodate someone's minor quirks to get access to a superpower.

dns_snek 3mo ago
I'm well aware and I don't have a problem with you or anyone else living life the way you want. This doesn't explain animosity towards treatment/cure research.
- jimnotgym 3mo ago
  Does it not? When you 'cure' the lateness you lose the superpower too. Now you have another boring normie doing a workmanlike job. I think the reason for the animosity is the assumption that it is it a disease or disorder in the first place. It presumes that rather than being different, it is wrong. Perhaps what is wrong, is neurotypical people insisting that the more gifted people have to be bent and twisted and forced to conform to the world as they want it. Perhaps because their boring and unimaginative minds can't stand the idea that someone else could lead a different life to them. Or, and have heard this, they are annoyed that the talented person with different needs gets to come in late some days... and they feel they are missing out themselves on a lie-in.
  - dns_snek 3mo ago
    No it doesn't explain the animosity because nobody is forcing you to take the cure, but there are people who desperately want a cure.
    - jimnotgym 3mo ago
      Are they desperate for the cure, because they are forced to work with people can't accept them for who they are? Because they are exhausted from years of masking, because you can't succeed unless you fit in? Do they desperately want the 'cure'? Or do they want the problem of fitting in to a normie world to go away?
      - dns_snek 3mo ago
        That's a philosophical question that doesn't help people who are suffering. People are alive here and now. Some people will want a cure regardless. And we'll never have a society that's perfectly inclusive and understanding enough of all disorders, so it's just wishful thinking.
        jimnotgym 3mo ago
        They won't get a cure, because autism is not a disease. It reminds me of the idea that 'curing' people's homosexuality would make them happier. Turns out it is not possible, but in the civilised world we made things so much better for them by just not being shitty and oppressive.
        dns_snek 3mo ago
        Not this shit again. I don't care whether you call it a cure, a treatment leading to complete improvement of all symptoms, a therapy that rids them of their problems, or a magic happiness potion. You can discuss the philosophy of these decisions all day long but at the end of the day, you don't get to tell other people what to do. You're no different from the "pro-life" crowd who want to ban abortion based on simplistic and idealistic view of the world. When you berate people who are asking for more treatment options, you're not just expressing your preference, you're also trying to control theirs. My patience on this has truly run out.

ssl-3 3mo ago

> I see this sentiment often, but only when it comes to autism. How is this different from other disorders, disabilities, illnesses? These are not equivalent, synonymous terms. I think that your premise might need some work. There's plenty of people in the world who are healthy, autistic, and not disabled at all.

dns_snek 3mo ago
I know they're not synonymous, that's why I used all 3 and not just one.
- ssl-3 3mo ago
  That may be what was meant, but that's not how it was written.
  - dns_snek 3mo ago
    It was written fine. ASD is a disorder which was the first item on that list. You could make the same type of argument about disabilities (e.g. deafness) and someone pointed out that people make the same arguments in the deaf community too.
    - ssl-3 3mo ago
      Words mean things.
      - dns_snek 3mo ago
        And my words in no way implied that those were equal, or that autism was necessarily an illness or a disability. People often make those arguments and I'm not one of them. You're attacking a straw man.
        ssl-3 3mo ago
        sigh. > I see this sentiment often, but only when it comes to autism. How is this different from other disorders, disabilities, illnesses? We have a comparative question involving a list of things, here. Let's unroll the list and make separate comparative questions instead: autism. How is this different from other disorders? This works. Autism is a disorder. It can be compared to other disorders. autism. How is this different from other disabilities? This doesn't work. The comparison rests upon the implication that autism must be a disability, but that's just not absolute. It certainly can be disabling, but it often is not disabling. autism. How is this different from other illnesses? This doesn't work. Autism is not an illness.

stonyrubbish 3mo ago

> How is this different from other disorders, disabilities, illnesses? Part of the confusion here is that autism isn't straightforwardly a disability. A plurality of people with autism are ASD-1, which is the kind requiring the least support needs while, purely empirically speaking, conferring lots of well-documented benefits. The sort of elephant in the room in these conversations is that there are lots of replicable studies which show that autistic people outperform non-autistic people in a variety of areas. The idea of attempting to engineer the removal of a class of people from society-- people with unique strengths which are necessary for the functioning of that society-- has consequences that are significantly less well-understood than proponents of this idea make it out to be.

dns_snek 3mo ago
I agree up until this point: > The idea of attempting to engineer the removal of a class of people from society-- people with unique strengths which are necessary for the functioning of that society-- has consequences that are significantly less well-understood than proponents of this idea make it out to be. I'll be the first to pick up my pitchforks at anyone who suggests non-consensual treatments. My point is that trying to find a cure for something is different from trying to eradicate people from a gene pool. In fact, I would assume that having an effective treatment/cure for autism would make it more widespread, not less. People who were cured of their ASD-related deficits would be far more likely to find a partner and have kids, and those kids would inherit genes which are responsible for ASD.
- tavavex 3mo ago
  You don't need a big bad government or other outside entity to have non-consensual treatments. Just make it available to parents, who can make decisions for their children regardless of their wishes or any nuances of the situation. They won't allow kids to grow up and choose for themselves. Does being autistic decrease your chances of finding a partner? That feels like something that should be substantiated, because although it feels logical that a deficiency in communication would lead to this, in reality I just see autistic people seeking each other explicitly or even subconsciously by being inclined toward their own traits. I think a stronger argument is that there are more severe instances of autism that are disabling while providing few benefits of 'mild' or 'normal' autism.

inigyou 3mo ago

It isn't unique. Deaf people fight against research to cure hearing loss and fight against people having it cured, as they say it's betraying the deaf community.

dns_snek 3mo ago
That's interesting, I didn't know about that!
anon48293 3mo ago
Fortunately most of their criticism falls on deaf ears.

47282847 3mo ago

> How is this different from other disorders, disabilities, illnesses? Not diagnosed autistic myself, but I buy into the argument that a lot of “(mental) disorders” make one allergic to the amount of subtle and less subtle daily dose of interrelational violence. Plenty of drugs exist to numb organisms. I don’t know if you’ve ever been on antidepressants or antipsychotics, but one who has might relate that that kind of “cure” means to turn you into a “functioning zombie”. One may prefer the suffering and ability to fight and point out violent behavior rather than a medically-induced zoning out. Our societies are far from “healthy”. What is “disordered” is how we treat ourselves and others. It’s up to each one individually to decide how much they want to be part of this “normal” or whether they prefer to be “disordered” even if it comes with certain limitations. ”It Is No Measure of Health To Be Well-Adjusted to a Profoundly Sick Society” (Krishnamurti) See e.g. Hughes, K., Bellis, M. A., Hardcastle, K. A., Sethi, D., Butchart, A., Mikton, C., Jones, L., & Dunne, M. P. (2017). The effect of multiple adverse childhood experiences on health: A systematic review and meta-analysis. The Lancet Public Health, 2(8), e356–e366. https://doi.org/10.1016/S2468-2667(17)30118-4 https://doi.org/10.1016/S2468-2667(17)30118-4

cindyllm 3mo ago
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thrownphone 3mo ago
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dns_snek 3mo ago
> It’s up to each one individually to decide how much they want to be part of this “normal” or whether they prefer to be “disordered” even if it comes with certain limitations. I completely agree. And I've never been on antidepressants but I take Concerta (stimulant) for ADHD and I've heard many say that they feel like zombies on stimulants. I've never felt like a zombie, it just takes the "edge" off by making it easier to get started and get things done, makes me slightly better organized, etc. I think it sucks that some people don't respond well to medication. It's also a given that the freedom to decide on what to do with your body is an enshrined, essential human right. The problem I have is this: Just like I don't tell them what to do, I expect that they wouldn't berate me for taking the treatment, and for asking for better ones.. yet they do. When I cheer on the research for a cure, because I want it, for myself, I always get antagonized by the "superpower" crowd, get interrogated under the presumption I'm the second coming of Hitler, get told that I don't really want it, it's just the society making me say that (1. not true; 2. Gee, thanks)... It just never ends and I'm officially out of patience entertaining it. The other responses to my comments in this thread are a good example of that

catchnear4321 3mo ago

treating the dsm like a checklist of cures to complete sounds a bit like what might go in the dsm

dns_snek 3mo ago
If you try to reformulate that snarky one-liner that into a good faith argument you'll see how ridiculous it sounds. Yes, actually we should have treatments and cures available for anyone who wants them, for anything inside and outside the DSM.
- catchnear4321 3mo ago
  it was a snarky one-liner made in good faith. you put words in my mouth by suggesting i am against treatments, or cures, but that’s not really your point.

julianlam 3mo ago

Spot on. The same arguments pop up when new therapies are unveiled for various sightedness disorders, hearing impairment, etc. How _dare_ you impugn upon my identity that has been reinforced through my upbringing constantly? Etc.

Scandiravian 3mo ago

OP here The main issue I see with this line of thinking is that there is an underlying/implicit assumption that there is something wrong with being autistic Society has the mental disorders it creates, i.e. autism is only viewed as a disorder because it doesn't fit into the societal structures we have built Not long ago being gay was considered a mental disorder - should we try to find a cure for homosexuality? Most neurotypical people who I see argue for "a cure" want one because they don't want a society where there is room for people who experience the world in a different way and therefore have different views than themselves Said more plainly, they're bigots and they have no qualms berating, scolding, and making fun of an autistic person until said person believes they are actually in need of fixing. If someone who faces discrimination and bullying every day asked to be "cured", are they actually making an informed choice or are they being forced by society? There is nothing wrong with being autistic and it shouldn't be necessary for myself and other autistic people to justify our existence based on things like economic output As I pointed out in my original post, I am conflicted about the potential for a "cure". For asd-3 it could potentially be revolutionary in terms of quality of life, but with the discrimination I myself experience and what I hear from other autistic people, not to mention the political situation around the world, I do not trust that this will actually be used to help us. It would be used to control us because other people somehow believe we're broken

dns_snek 3mo ago
There's nothing wrong with being autistic, that's not my assumption and I don't want to "fix" anyone. You're preaching to the choir about the bigots and you're right to be skeptical. I'd never trust anyone who campaigns against autism the way RFK Jr. did (for example). He's clearly just using autism as a political pawn and whatever their underlying motivation might be, I know they that their real intentions are impure so any research they touch is automatically tainted. Hopefully that clarifies my position on this? On the flip side I strongly support real scientific research into the treatments of all causes of human suffering, one of them being autism. To put it simply before diving deeper: Regardless of everything else, I support research into these treatments/cures because there are people who desperately want them, and because their lives would be saved/drastically improved if they had them. --- A plurality of people with autism experience crisis-level distress. It's been a while since I looked at the research, but from what I remember, the rate of suicidal ideation is worse for people who have a lower level of impairment/support needs. The rate of suicide among people with autism is something like ~5x higher and in some subgroups (lower support needs, comorbid disorders) I believe it's even higher than that - closer to ~10x. That is why I want there to be a cure for autism, and ADHD, and every ailment that exists. Without it many people experience so much suffering that they have little choice but to kill themselves. --- I have ADHD so these sorts of discussions affect me directly. People frequently call it a superpower and talk about how great it is. Public discussion is inherently biased towards perspectives of those who are least affected since they participate more and communicate clearly. The net effect is that people who suffer the least have the loudest voices, they simultaneously reject the idea of treatment without consideration for those who have it worse, and they tend to antagonize people who are worse off for merely suggesting that the disorder is something that anyone would want to get rid of. I hope you can see how that's problematic?

cindyllm 3mo ago

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