4 ms·

Somewhat over-estimating the numbers, but even if your stats were accurate it wouldn’t change the critique that “the west” does the exact same thing. This isn’

Somewhat over-estimating the numbers, but even if your stats were accurate it wouldn’t change the critique that “the west” does the exact same thing. This isn’t what-about-ism, this is simply acknowledging the realpolitik that there are great powers vying for control over the rest if the world through proxies. A game as old as civilisation itself. We support Ukraine, they support Russia. We support Israel, they support Iran. We X, they Y. Neither is more right or wrong than the other, and neither is the only bad actor.

gkbrk 2mo ago
You’re insane if you think supporting Russia is not “more wrong” than supporting Ukraine during a war Russia started to invade Ukraine.
- adhamsalama 2mo ago
  What about Israel?
  - jimbob45 2mo ago
    We support them but they don’t need us. Iran would crumble tomorrow without China. Also, Likud Israel might be gone after this year’s October election, whether we want it gone or not. Conversely, China acts as a virtual suzerain over Iran (and NK).
    - deaux 2mo ago
      If you truly believe that Gaza would be entirely rubble as it is today without the last 2 decades of slavish US backing, I don't know what to tell you. US is also best friends with the financiers of the horrific genocide in Sudan. This isn't whataboutism because you're genuinely presenting it as if it's something very different from what the US has been up to for the last 60 years.
      - applicative 2mo ago
        The slavish US backing is the same slavish backing we give to Egypt, both consequent on Camp David. It is very obvious - simple arithmetic - that Israel would have a much bigger and chearper arsenal if they traded arms with China, India, Russia etc. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just jewpilled.
  - zelphirkalt 2mo ago
    Yeah, supporting Israel as we do is also insane. By that I mean delivering weapons so that they can continue their wars against their neighbors, their genocide, and their illegal, and extending occupation of the West Bank. Our politicians still don't find it in themselves to criticize Israel, after their actions have been recognized as Genocide. Only a few countries in Europe have been more vocal about it, like Spain and I believe Ireland. Especially, it hurts to see that German politicians are so uneducated, that they have learned nothing from history, and still act by the categories "Israel? Good!", "Against Israel? Evil!".
- Alpha3031 2mo ago
  Didn't the US stop new aid since 2025? Sanctions against Russia sure (at least until they decided the spat with Iran was more important) but I feel like that moral high ground is little enough that proposing to "ahem remove"... Actually on second thought even if the US is doing everything perfectly re Ukraine and Iran and whatever and general being the paragon of morality it really feels like jimbob45's proposal would be a speedrun of losing any possible moral high ground. The only thing that would do it faster is a first strike, and probably only by a couple of days or so. We're really discussing that as if "ahem removing" the leadership of a P5 (i.e. has enough nukes to end the world) country is a sane and normal thing to suggest?
- jiggawatts 2mo ago
  That's not my meaning. There is a larger game being played. Sometimes one side is the aggressor in one particular local skirmish, sometimes the other. Over the last few decades, the United States has regularly been the "unprovoked aggressor". But again, the numbers aren't the point. The individual skirmishes aren't the point. Neither side is "good" or "evil" like some child's cartoon. These are merely Great Powers poking and prodding each other, looking for advantage.
Alpha3031 2mo ago
Besides which, I doubt China has sufficient influence over Iran to restrain them, considering the US "ahem removed" the all the people that could plausibly considered moderates. I wonder how reasonable China would feel if the US really went ahead and "ahem removed" a thousand of the top political leadership. My bet, well, it's certainly possible they are correct on the "wouldn't be able to continue their population repression" bit... considering we'll all be too busy dying of nuclear winter. Imagine things happening other way around and China deciding to "ahem remove", not even a thousand, maybe a dozen people from the US government. Odds on that not ending in a nuclear exchange, anyone? I would take that bet at basically any odds, only I probably wouldn't be alive to spend it if I won.

gkbrk 2mo ago

You’re insane if you think supporting Russia is not “more wrong” than supporting Ukraine during a war Russia started to invade Ukraine.

adhamsalama 2mo ago
What about Israel?
- jimbob45 2mo ago
  We support them but they don’t need us. Iran would crumble tomorrow without China. Also, Likud Israel might be gone after this year’s October election, whether we want it gone or not. Conversely, China acts as a virtual suzerain over Iran (and NK).
  - deaux 2mo ago
    If you truly believe that Gaza would be entirely rubble as it is today without the last 2 decades of slavish US backing, I don't know what to tell you. US is also best friends with the financiers of the horrific genocide in Sudan. This isn't whataboutism because you're genuinely presenting it as if it's something very different from what the US has been up to for the last 60 years.
    - applicative 2mo ago
      The slavish US backing is the same slavish backing we give to Egypt, both consequent on Camp David. It is very obvious - simple arithmetic - that Israel would have a much bigger and chearper arsenal if they traded arms with China, India, Russia etc. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just jewpilled.
- zelphirkalt 2mo ago
  Yeah, supporting Israel as we do is also insane. By that I mean delivering weapons so that they can continue their wars against their neighbors, their genocide, and their illegal, and extending occupation of the West Bank. Our politicians still don't find it in themselves to criticize Israel, after their actions have been recognized as Genocide. Only a few countries in Europe have been more vocal about it, like Spain and I believe Ireland. Especially, it hurts to see that German politicians are so uneducated, that they have learned nothing from history, and still act by the categories "Israel? Good!", "Against Israel? Evil!".
Alpha3031 2mo ago
Didn't the US stop new aid since 2025? Sanctions against Russia sure (at least until they decided the spat with Iran was more important) but I feel like that moral high ground is little enough that proposing to "ahem remove"... Actually on second thought even if the US is doing everything perfectly re Ukraine and Iran and whatever and general being the paragon of morality it really feels like jimbob45's proposal would be a speedrun of losing any possible moral high ground. The only thing that would do it faster is a first strike, and probably only by a couple of days or so. We're really discussing that as if "ahem removing" the leadership of a P5 (i.e. has enough nukes to end the world) country is a sane and normal thing to suggest?
jiggawatts 2mo ago
That's not my meaning. There is a larger game being played. Sometimes one side is the aggressor in one particular local skirmish, sometimes the other. Over the last few decades, the United States has regularly been the "unprovoked aggressor". But again, the numbers aren't the point. The individual skirmishes aren't the point. Neither side is "good" or "evil" like some child's cartoon. These are merely Great Powers poking and prodding each other, looking for advantage.

Alpha3031 2mo ago

Besides which, I doubt China has sufficient influence over Iran to restrain them, considering the US "ahem removed" the all the people that could plausibly considered moderates. I wonder how reasonable China would feel if the US really went ahead and "ahem removed" a thousand of the top political leadership. My bet, well, it's certainly possible they are correct on the "wouldn't be able to continue their population repression" bit... considering we'll all be too busy dying of nuclear winter. Imagine things happening other way around and China deciding to "ahem remove", not even a thousand, maybe a dozen people from the US government. Odds on that not ending in a nuclear exchange, anyone? I would take that bet at basically any odds, only I probably wouldn't be alive to spend it if I won.