3 ms·

I’m not sure where this idea came from that shit in old books is inherently rational or they would have any frame of reference to compare it to the modern world

I’m not sure where this idea came from that shit in old books is inherently rational or they would have any frame of reference to compare it to the modern world. Everybody’s conception of the worst is based on their own experience. I currently work in a trade. My sixty-something boss constantly makes side comments about a life of backbreaking work, for more hours and in the midst of more hardship than any of the kids these days. But interrogate it lightly and you’ll hear about a guy that got a union apprenticeship right out of high school, was making a solid adult wage by 22, moving back and forth between another trade he had a house at 25, and was a classic truck collector and eventually fabricator in his 30s. Now that he’s in his sixties he’s going to retire with TWO pensions for life. If you talk to anyone in the industrial trades, they’ll know one or more of these ”I’m only bitter because I worked too damn hard for everything I ever had” guys that spent most of their lives under competent union representation, never had any serious threat to their lifestyle that wasn’t of their own doing, and owns a vacation home, a motorcycle, a boat, and multiple cars. I’m sure they genuinely believe it. And I’m sure if they wrote a book about it, they would paint a picture of indentured servitude where the houses and cars and everything were sources of stress and financial burden. Then, they’d say, “hey, check out my cool cars and lake house,” and then talk about how living with your parents after age 18 is a moral failure.

nradov 2mo ago
We should all listen to guys like your boss. Circumstances have changed a bit but their beliefs are generally directionally correct and they have some great lessons to teach.
- DrewADesign 2mo ago
  I’m directly between his age and the age of the people he criticizes. He has absolutely no understanding of what challenges young people face. His path to stability has vanished. There’s no apprenticeship program in that union anymore and in the ones that are, the percentage of your living expenses to your income is incomparably higher. The younger people work more hours than he did at their age and have a hell of a lot less to show for it because it buys a hell of a lot less. Since wealth compounds, this is not merely a temporary setback — it’s a completely different arc of progress. Many have replaced pensions with riskier and less stable 401ks. He has no idea what he’s talking about. His formula for success in life basically starts with “begin an industrial career just before the peak of the golden age of US manufacturing in a heavily industrialized area in the golden age of organized labor.”
  - inigyou 2mo ago
    In South Korea everyone was recently using 3x leverage on the stock market—which mostly consists of just 2 companies, so concentrated that American institutions aren't allowed to call their index funds diversified—because you have nothing to lose by losing 200% of your money. Which did happen last week as the market crashed. Those people are no worse off for losing 200% of their life savings, because they are already at zero if they don't literally win the lottery—life savings weren't enough to be net positive.
    - DrewADesign 2mo ago
      I think it’s pretty hard for people that came up in the 70s and 80s who are ending their careers to wrap their heads around how shit it is to try starting a career/life right now. Even when people outright tell them, they assume those people are exaggerating or making excuses for not challenging themselves. Back in those days there was always some other route. The entire lower-end of the job market, including just about anything entry-level, is so deliberately extractive now that, by design, you just ‘can’t’ get ahead. That’s where the financial nihilism comes in.
      - inigyou 2mo ago
        I feel like they were more confident back then. They knew if they followed a certain path they were likely to succeed. Now it's all murky and it's obvious that most paths lead to failure, but it's not obvious which ones don't.
        DrewADesign 2mo ago
        Well imagine having the entire first like decade of your career happen before the Reagan era blessed the relentless pursuit of profit at the expense of anyone, even if they were core parts of your company? Before Private equity, rampant off-shoring, etc. etc. etc. Even in the nineties people were saying things like “don’t switch jobs too often because it will make you look disloyal.” Well now, in many industries, if you have the same job for 5 years people think you’re just unmotivated. Considering how little employers are willing to invest in employees compared to recruiting shiny new ones, it makes sense.
- shimman 2mo ago
  That we should act like "self made men" when in reality it took entire multiple lifetimes worth of effort where people in power were finally allowed to create a society where a common trades worker could enjoy an upper middle class lifestyle? Hard pass, I'd rather talk to his union rep.
  - DrewADesign 2mo ago
    The union rep is, indeed, a good dude!

nradov 2mo ago

We should all listen to guys like your boss. Circumstances have changed a bit but their beliefs are generally directionally correct and they have some great lessons to teach.

DrewADesign 2mo ago
I’m directly between his age and the age of the people he criticizes. He has absolutely no understanding of what challenges young people face. His path to stability has vanished. There’s no apprenticeship program in that union anymore and in the ones that are, the percentage of your living expenses to your income is incomparably higher. The younger people work more hours than he did at their age and have a hell of a lot less to show for it because it buys a hell of a lot less. Since wealth compounds, this is not merely a temporary setback — it’s a completely different arc of progress. Many have replaced pensions with riskier and less stable 401ks. He has no idea what he’s talking about. His formula for success in life basically starts with “begin an industrial career just before the peak of the golden age of US manufacturing in a heavily industrialized area in the golden age of organized labor.”
- inigyou 2mo ago
  In South Korea everyone was recently using 3x leverage on the stock market—which mostly consists of just 2 companies, so concentrated that American institutions aren't allowed to call their index funds diversified—because you have nothing to lose by losing 200% of your money. Which did happen last week as the market crashed. Those people are no worse off for losing 200% of their life savings, because they are already at zero if they don't literally win the lottery—life savings weren't enough to be net positive.
  - DrewADesign 2mo ago
    I think it’s pretty hard for people that came up in the 70s and 80s who are ending their careers to wrap their heads around how shit it is to try starting a career/life right now. Even when people outright tell them, they assume those people are exaggerating or making excuses for not challenging themselves. Back in those days there was always some other route. The entire lower-end of the job market, including just about anything entry-level, is so deliberately extractive now that, by design, you just ‘can’t’ get ahead. That’s where the financial nihilism comes in.
    - inigyou 2mo ago
      I feel like they were more confident back then. They knew if they followed a certain path they were likely to succeed. Now it's all murky and it's obvious that most paths lead to failure, but it's not obvious which ones don't.
      - DrewADesign 2mo ago
        Well imagine having the entire first like decade of your career happen before the Reagan era blessed the relentless pursuit of profit at the expense of anyone, even if they were core parts of your company? Before Private equity, rampant off-shoring, etc. etc. etc. Even in the nineties people were saying things like “don’t switch jobs too often because it will make you look disloyal.” Well now, in many industries, if you have the same job for 5 years people think you’re just unmotivated. Considering how little employers are willing to invest in employees compared to recruiting shiny new ones, it makes sense.
shimman 2mo ago
That we should act like "self made men" when in reality it took entire multiple lifetimes worth of effort where people in power were finally allowed to create a society where a common trades worker could enjoy an upper middle class lifestyle? Hard pass, I'd rather talk to his union rep.
- DrewADesign 2mo ago
  The union rep is, indeed, a good dude!