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Prof. calls out student for cheating via Math StackExchange
- niyazpk 14y agoIs there any way to be absolutely certain that "John Paul" is really John Paul? Otherwise this does not mean anything more than "somebody better be confessing, but I am not sure who". (The fact that there was a an attempt on the question does not bode well for this guy, but again, that could be faked too... right?)
- sosuke 14y agoHow about signing up under someone else's name and asking questions.
- bentcorner 14y agoI couldn't understand someone who did that. If you're posting under an alias it's because you're worried that you might get caught. You're also assuming that the person you're posing as is going to be blamed. At this point - what would you expect happen? The accused is going to plead innocence. If it was a serious enough matter IP logs and maybe other forensics are going to get pulled out. Are you smart enough to evade all that too? If you get caught, the punishment is going to be even worse. At that point, it is probably easier to just study, learn the material and do it yourself. I just cannot fathom how people could be truly pulling off these sort of stunts and can sleep soundly at night. At some point if you're an idiot you have to accept it and either do something different or buckle down and work harder.
- w1ntermute 14y agoYou clearly don't know how cutthroat some of these universities are. There are students that will do anything to be number one.
- illuminate 14y ago"I just cannot fathom how people could be truly pulling off these sort of stunts and can sleep soundly at night." The same way they do it in the corporate world, I imagine.
- jmcqk6 14y agoIt's possible that the professor matched the name to his roster, though a student could still be using a fellow classmates' name.
- jug6ernaut 14y ago100%? No. But depending on the schools policies that may not be required, i mean when someone turns in work that hey cheated on there is never 100% evidence ether. If the question matches 100% and the user's name also matches someone in the class 100% it would probable be enough, but thats just me speculating.
- jeremyjh 14y agoIts a trap. A written confession may result in serious consequences; without that, prof can't prove John is John...
- fusiongyro 14y agoThis is classic programmer thinking. Administration will accept that the account belongs to the student because the names are the same and the question matches the exam question. Stronger evidence will not be required.
- jeremyjh 14y agoAt first they may accept that but do you really think the student isn't going to challenge it? There actually is due process involved in matters like this, and part of that is assessing the evidence. The only reason the prof asked for the confession is because otherwise he has absolutely nothing.
- fusiongyro 14y agoThe burden of proof for a reprimand at a university is a lot lower than in a court. Every university takes a hard line on cheating (or at least, wants to be perceived that way), and all other things being equal they will side with their faculty over their students. So no, I doubt very seriously that "due process" at the university level is going to require harder evidence than this, until the student is thrown out of the school and dad's lawyer decides to sue, and even then it won't be hard to materialize a contract signed by the student at matriculation that alleviates the university of any kind of obligation to be fair about these kinds of punishments. The likelihood of a student being "framed" is a lot lower than the likelihood of the student just being stupid and expecting not to get caught. When bringing this up before the university ethics board the student will have to do more than argue that anybody could have registered under their name. There will probably need to be some proof that somebody else did it. If you think otherwise, wait until you or somebody you know winds up on the wrong side of a university ethics panel. You'd be surprised how very little it takes to get in trouble and how difficult it can be to get out of trouble. A friend of mine got brought before an ethics panel for hacking, by simply sending the IT staff an email about a page with a vulnerability. Nothing was exploited and nobody was told about it except one person in the IT department. It took five profs arguing against the absurdity of the proceedings to get the sentence reduced from being kicked out to "just" one semester of probation. In short, the prof doesn't need the confession. The student would be wise to write one and play up that this is their first time cheating. Trying to fight this like a legal battle will only make the school that much more eager to kick the student out.
- basseq 14y agoYowch.
- missechokit 14y agoSo was this a CMU student? :(
- elviejo 14y agoThis is a dilemma for me. On one side: Is it wrong to ask for help?? In the professional world, being able to communicate and collaborate in finding an answer is more usefuel than doing it all by your own. On the other side: If what you want to do is to develop in your brain the mental models to do math. then you need to do your homework... is like triying to get in shape, it's ok to have a personal trainer but he can't lift weights for you.
- missechokit 14y agoI think the issue here was that it was for a final exam.
- ams6110 14y agoEvidently a take-home exam, which by its nature would have different expectations wrt assistance vs. an in-class exam.
- c0nfused 14y agoYeah, let's post the questions to our take home final to the internet. No one will notice. Honest.
- enjo 14y agoI'm not sure what you expect when it's a take home final, however.
- stephencanon 14y agoHonesty?
- forkrulassail 14y agoI'm sure honour codes don't distinguish.
- misnome 14y agoIt's not wrong to ask for help or advice, but this wasn't even that in the slightest; The question is just posted verbatim, without even any evidence of attempting to understand or tackle the question on it's own.
- raxen 14y agoouch.
- samdunne 14y agoMember for: today Hmmmmmmmmm
- darrenkopp 14y agoThe best part is that the student edited the question and replaced it with a bunch of garbage characters, and then an admin rolled back the edit, ~2 hours before the professor's comment.
- Torn 14y agoIs this hacker news?
- sosuke 14y agoDon't use your real credentials when asking for help on school work. I don't think this student was asking for help so much as asking someone to do the work for him, but I'll keep it in mind either way.
- bmohlenhoff 14y agoI'm skeptical anything will come from this. It's not like a Stack Exchange username is legitimate proof of identity. The professor called out the student for cheating but unless the guy actually turns in the form along with the exam, there's probably no way to legitimately link the student's identity with the stack exchange identity, unless the guy was stupid enough to sign up with his actual name. That being said, this would be an effective way to screw over someone else, if you signed up with their name and plastered these types of questions all over the internet. The first thing that any HR rep is going to do when considering a job application is searching for the persons name. If this type of garbage comes up, that resume will probably be instantly tossed into the bit bucket.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- theologic 14y agoAfter spending 9 years in school, I have very little regard for Professors that both don't understand how this generation of kids work, nor understand that take home finals in technical fields such as math have zero merit. The smart kids are always going to be penalized because the cheating kids are going to ask for help. In other words, this kid got caught. We can discuss if this kid should have known that he was cheating or not (and I believe that there is good evidence that modern kids have a difficult time grasping the idea of original work). That is both a process and a procedure that colleges should teach kids. Ethics 101 should be a required course. (Then again, Allen and Gates bought DOS from Seattle Computing Products and sold it as their own.) My problem is the other 50% of the kids that find a friend that can help them, and thereby cheat but have no avenue to be caught. Simple solution is to have tests in class on a sample of the work done during the quarter/semester. If you can't do this, then you don't understand how to test for knowledge While this won't stop cheating, it should bring it down dramatically. The best way to slow cheating is to not give an opportunity to cheat in the first place.
- stdbrouw 14y ago> and I believe that there is good evidence that modern kids have a difficult time grasping the idea of original work Where can I find that good, non-anecdotal evidence?
- tossacct 14y agostdbrouw, here's your link :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_dishonesty#Academic_dishonesty_today http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_dishonesty#Academic_di... The following is for anyone who hasn't heard of wikipedia: Wikipedia is often a good place to begin research. It can often provide a set of words that you can use to look for scholarly works that can provide "good, non-anecdotal data". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_dishonesty http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_dishonesty This article features words like: Plagiarism, fabrication, deception, cheating, bribery, sabotage, professorial sabotage, and personation. These may help you in your search for "good, non-anecdotal evidence". Wikipedia also provides links to "good, non-anecdotal evidence" from time to time, and calls these links "references". These references can often be accessed online, but sometimes require you to access a physical book. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_dishonesty#References http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_dishonesty#References The things that you read in wikipedia are not necessarily the truth. Wikipedia has information and mis-information on many topics.
- styluss 14y agoThis also happened with a Portuguese 2nd year CS student, no one was sure if it really was the teacher.
- CJefferson 14y agoThis kind of thing does cause serious issues evaluating students. On one hand, students, employers and lecturers all agree (I think) that allowing students to do larger projects, over a period of time, allows them to better show their strengths and tackle interesting problems. On the other hand, without locking people in a room with nothing but a pen for 3 hours or so, it is very difficult to check they aren't getting someone else to do all their work for them.
- ramidarigaz 14y agoI still like to push the idea that my school's CS department uses: grading appointments. 40% of your grade is the code actually working, 60% is you being able to explain it to the TA.
- misiti3780 14y agothat is a great idea
- Deinos 14y agoI second that it is a wonderful idea. One on one project code reviews where the student explains their rationale and the professor points out issues would be a great way to judge progress as well as practice for code reviews the student will face in the real world.
- davorak 14y agoThe down side is that grading becomes more subjective. I have had one or two TAs could not accurately judge students understanding of the subject. It is a good tool though and did determine part of my grade in undergrad CS. This combined with in house programming quizzes/tests should go a long way to evaluating a student knowledge.
- xradionut 14y agoIf the TA has a grasp of spoken language, that might work. (In the past I've dropped labs and classes when profs/TAs couldn't communicate clearly.)
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- nhebb 14y agoThe prof also busted him on another question: http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/256822/product-of-two-polynomials-p-and-q-with-rational-coefficients-has-a-integer-coef#comment562581_256822 http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/256822/product-of-tw...
- btilly 14y agoThat is the only other question that was asked.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- danielweber 14y agoI don't see the professor calling him out. Can you point it out to me? (Or has it been removed?) EDIT: it was deleted
- mekoka 14y agoSo, does this mean I can register an account on Math StackExchange and ask for help with an alias, which is possibly a fellow student's actual name and that person will be penalized for my cheating?
- eli 14y agoAt least when I was in school, you had the right to a hearing for any alleged violation of the rules.
- jug6ernaut 14y agoVery good question, you have a point. This comes down to the whole question of "ip = person" obviously you cant, there is no definitive link. But at the same time does it mean its open season on cheating via the internet? There has to be some middle ground. How to go about that, i have no idea.
- eranation 14y agoYou could, someone actually commented there, asking the prof: >"how do you know who posted the question? In this forum anyone can post under any name...". The prof replied (as an answer, not a comment): >"Anyone stupid enough to cheat is stupid enough to use their own name." http://math.stackexchange.com/a/257156/23944 http://math.stackexchange.com/a/257156/23944 Since it will most likely be deleted by the mods very soon (merely because its not a mathematical answer), here is the screenshot http://i.imgur.com/TtqHG.png http://i.imgur.com/TtqHG.png So, to be fair, we don't know if the prof is using his real name or it's just a friend of the OP trying to pull a prank. We'll probably never know.
- afterburner 14y agoDoes this prof seriously think only stupid people cheat?
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
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- gambiting 14y agoI think this is wrong. The professor does not understand how the world spins around nowadays. He caught that guy,but there is no guarantee nobody else was cheating. Personally,as a non-English student attending a university in the UK I could easily ask questions in a language the professor could not understand, on forums he doesn't know exist. My point being - if somebody wants to get away with it,they will - as many people pointed out,it would be enough if he posted that question under a fake name. So if the professor cannot guarantee that no-one is cheating,then any marks obtained for that exam/homework/whatever are completely meaningless.
- rmah 14y agoIs this way of thinking common among students today?
- gambiting 14y agoNo,but if I was handed a take-home-exam, I would be first to protest,because I would know that even if I am 100% honest and don't look on the internet there is no guarantee that everyone else does the same.
- thisone 14y agoYou can never guarantee that no other student is cheating in some way. Well, you can, but it involves you not being a student.
- objclxt 14y ago> "as a non-English student attending a university in the UK I could easily ask questions in a language the professor could not understand, on forums he doesn't know exist" Yeah, that's not a great idea. It's generally pretty straightforward to tell, especially for CS (more so than mathematics, but the same principles apply). I once had a not-so-bright student IM'ing someone in Chinese asking for a solution right in front of me during office hours. Sure, I can't read Chinese, but I can definitely recognise formulae and code. In a well run class the same person should be grading your homework and exams throughout the semester. I used to find it really obvious when somebody was 'borrowing' something.
- DanBC 14y agoIs there anything to say that the professor actually is the professor? It's a new account.
- crusso 14y agoNot sure why you were downvoted. I was wondering the same thing. It could just have been another student or friend busting his chops.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- davorak 14y agoI got to see the editor powers in action as the professors comment was deleted after a reload. The edit makes sense, anyone can post under any name and bad news travels faster then good and can be stickier so reputations can be damaged incorrectly.
- antman 14y agoJust now, the professors answer disappeared in front of my eyes after a page refresh. For those seeing this after me, apparently his professor was watching the thread and told him he show he is cheating and send a copy of the url and/or his post history to discuss his penalty.
- mcg1969 14y agoSo his username on the Math site is John Paul, but if you click over to his Stack Exchange network profile, it says his name is Stephen Hilger. Definitely some shenanigans here.
- firefoxman1 14y agoTeachers in my High School caught students doing this several times. The teacher would go on the Answers sites the night of an assignment and incorrectly* answer a question to catch the students cheating. Pretty clever on the teachers' part.
- w1ntermute 14y agoBut also rather immoral, since they were abusing the site. What if someone else came along later and thought those answers were real?
- tedunangst 14y agoThen that someone learns a valuable lesson about the internet.
- w1ntermute 14y agoThat's no justification to sabotage a math Q&A site, especially if you're a teacher. Those teachers should feel ashamed of themselves.
- tossacct 14y agoPlease explain. Note, this is not a comment about the teacher. Nowhere in my comment do I reference the teacher. >>>That's no justification to sabotage a math Q&A site. I assume you mean: [learning a valuable lesson about the internet is] no justification to [knowingly post an incorrect answer to] a math Q&A site. I disagree, and I think that the justification the OP mentioned is an excellent one, for one very specific type of sabotage (posting an incorrect answer). I will try to paraphrase their justification: Someone who reads an answer on a math Q&A site and does not check to make sure the answer is correct will learn "a valuable lesson about the internet" if the answer turns out to be incorrect. I assume that the lesson could be that "thinking that an idea is true doesn't make that idea true true". A more specific lesson about math could be "check your work". In my mind, these lessons are both valid justifications for the one specific type of sabotage mentioned. Some people believe that checking your work strengthens your math skills, so the people who checked to see if the answer was correct or incorrect may have improved their math skills as well.
- ef4 14y agoThis kind of thing is only ever going to get easier, not harder. Overall it's a good thing that sharing knowledge has become so easy. So we need to rethink the way we structure education and credentials. Why is there an incentive to cheat like this? Frankly, because most of the hoops a student jumps through during their education really don't impart any lasting measurable value. What fraction of educational content is still usable in the average student's brain ten years after they learned it? Very little. Mostly this comes down to the rigid and one-size-fits-all way we teach most things. Learning is orders of magnitude more effective when the learner has a personal motivation for why they want to learn something and how they intend to apply it in their life -- factors that are frequently missing from our traditional classroom model. The real value in school is the meta skills. Learning how to learn. Today we expect students to get those as a side effect of learning a bunch of pointless (to them personally) stuff, but more often than not they pick up the wrong set of meta skills: they learn how to cram information just long enough to regurgitate it for the test and then forget it forever. If you want people to learn the really valuable meta skills, you need to let them practice those meta skills in domains the students actually care about.
- bunderbunder 14y agoThe value is not in getting the answer. The value is in the mental exercise of figuring out how to get the answer. Supplying your professor with the answer is merely a token you provide as evidence that you have done so. As far as whether any "lasting measurable value" is imparted by these sorts of exercises, I can say that at my workplace I've seen more than one freshout who clearly hadn't made it through college without significant assistance from Stack Overflow and other people's blogs. None of them lasted very long. Perhaps knowing how to solve problems for yourself isn't necessary to get a college degree nowadays, but it's surprising how useful it can be in a career where you solve problems for a living.
- ef4 14y agoI don't disagree at all. I sure as heck did every problem myself and took pride in it, and I'm sure I'm more capable because of it. But that's not the point of my post. I'm asking why somebody who clearly doesn't care about learning this bit of math feels the need to go through the motions in the first place. It's a suboptimal way to learn anything.
- vermontdevil 14y agoThe professor (under a false name) should post an answer in a specific way and then see if any students submitted the exam with the copied answer. But in honesty what did the professor expect from students who are given take home exams? That they won't go online and look for answers?
- stephencanon 14y agoYes? Are you saying that you would go online and look for answers? If so, why do you believe that's an acceptable way to conduct yourself? If not, why do you believe that the professors students are any different?
- mediumdeviation 14y agoIt's nothing new - the same has been going on on Stack Overflow and other forums for ages. Here's a particularly egregious example of someone cheating on a Regional Olympiad level competition: http://meta.stackoverflow.com/q/155319/150097 http://meta.stackoverflow.com/q/155319/150097
- clarky07 14y agoI'll never understand why professors give take home exams and expect that the internet won't be used to help answer the questions. Even if he didn't just post the question without trying, who's to say a similar question isn't already there? Do History professors do this? I mean a math problem is something you might be unlikely to find on the internet, but I'm guessing wikipedia knows when the battle of Gettysburg took place. If you are allowing for "open book" but not "open internet" give the test in class and set their book on the table.
- astrobe_ 14y agoThis story and discussion is the perfect example of how wrong people are when thinking about schools and what's going on in there. A teacher provides two services: teaching (obviously) and evaluate students to let them know how well they are prepared to pass an official exam. So cheating or not cheating here is a non-issue except for the student that clearly doesn't know what he's doing. And the the teacher who seems enjoys playing the sheriff's role could be ridiculous, except he doesn't know what he is doing either. That's a pretty sad story, actually.
- joezhou 14y agowooh wooh wooh, so whos real and whos not here?
- tommaxwell 14y agoOP had it coming. Why would you use your real identity in this situation? What a n00b.