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> giving them more power doesn't look like a slippery slope straight to dystopia. This only makes sense if you have no concept of "future", wherein different,

> giving them more power doesn't look like a slippery slope straight to dystopia. This only makes sense if you have no concept of "future", wherein different, less reasonable people can gain power. This should be especially obvious in Germany, where an adversarial relationship with the state can easily be had by merely criticizing it.

fyredge 2mo ago
The solution then seems to be holding people in power accountable, no? Digital ID or not, the situation won't improve until we get actual representation that works for the people.
- cnd78A 2mo ago
  > The solution, then, seems to be holding people in power accountable, no? The problem is that this is an extremely difficult step to achieve, because it does not simply depend on the will of the people. It depends on cultural evolution. Human beings are not naturally rational; like other species, we are driven by evolutionary processes that are often irrational and self-interested. Most countries—and, more specifically, the majority of their citizens—have not yet reached this stage of civilizational development. The French are far from it, and I believe the Germans are as well. Despite belonging to the generation that emerged from a relatively recent period of cultural barbarism, Germany is currently supporting what is considered as the greatest genocide and one of the gravest sets of war crimes of our time. So I would not overestimate the level of civilization of a population whose majority appears unconcerned by what I see as such an obvious moral failure. In my view, one of the roots of human barbarism is the tendency to overestimate either human nature itself or the moral achievements of one's own culture.
  - fyredge 2mo ago
    > Most countries—and, more specifically, the majority of their citizens—have not yet reached this stage of civilizational development. While I do agree, I don't believe that the reason is barbarism. My view is that the general public have been imbued with a sense of smallness. We see powerful men twist the world to suit themselves and yet we can't do anything ourselves, alone. The solution is to embrace our agency and organize. Collective action is necessary to counter authoritative threats. We can sit behind our desk all day and espouse the virtues of voting and to vote with out wallet, but fundamentally, they are individual actions with little power. Western Europe is slightly better in this case, where labour rights are better enforced and people have more free time. Sure, the shops are closed too early for our convenience, but that gives people the time and opportunity to organize locally for the betterment of themselves. But yes, we do need a cultural evolution, one of better awareness of our capabilities as citizens to organise and demand better of our leaders.
- imtringued 2mo ago
  >The solution then seems to be holding people in power accountable, no? How do you hold people in power accountable if you get sued by them when you criticize them? That's the biggest reason why politicians want a full name / ID verification policy on the internet. It's so they can easily locate and sue their political enemies.
  - fyredge 2mo ago
    By fighting back in court. Better yet, by organising with others. I believe that it is in the interest of many to hold powerful people to account. Seek them out, share resources, organise a defense. It is not easy, and nothing good ever is. ID verification is pretty much a non-factor here. No one's listening to a politician who's real name is unknown. For all anyone knows, it could be a foreign actor / spy anyways.
yorwba 2mo ago
On the contrary, I don't think the current relative lack of arbitrary police brutality depends on the reasonableness of the people in power at all, only on the reasonableness of individual police officers. The police don't suddenly get softer when there's a left-wing government in power and tougher when there's a right-wing government. That "merely criticizing" the state gets you into an adversarial relationship is, I think, also overblown. For example, insulting someone is a crime in Germany. This is usually not enforced on children's playgrounds, so many remain unaware of this until adulthood. Then they might insult someone who is aware of the law (e.g. a representative of the state) in public and get surprised by a lawsuit. Similarly, spray-painting slogans on someone's house without permission will get prosecuted as vandalism. But if you stick to publishing in ways that normal people publish pro-state opinions, you can publish your criticism in the same way and nobody will bat an eye. (Certainly, a large number of people are criticizing the state in exactly this way at any given time, without being worse off for it.)
- wasabi991011 2mo ago
  > The police don't suddenly get softer when there's a left-wing government in power and tougher when there's a right-wing government. They absolutely can though, through hiring selection bias, training, firing, promotion criteria, bonuses, performance metrics and quotas, oversight enforcement or lack thereof, etc. It's not quick, but incentive structures can absolutely change an organizational culture.

fyredge 2mo ago

The solution then seems to be holding people in power accountable, no? Digital ID or not, the situation won't improve until we get actual representation that works for the people.

cnd78A 2mo ago
> The solution, then, seems to be holding people in power accountable, no? The problem is that this is an extremely difficult step to achieve, because it does not simply depend on the will of the people. It depends on cultural evolution. Human beings are not naturally rational; like other species, we are driven by evolutionary processes that are often irrational and self-interested. Most countries—and, more specifically, the majority of their citizens—have not yet reached this stage of civilizational development. The French are far from it, and I believe the Germans are as well. Despite belonging to the generation that emerged from a relatively recent period of cultural barbarism, Germany is currently supporting what is considered as the greatest genocide and one of the gravest sets of war crimes of our time. So I would not overestimate the level of civilization of a population whose majority appears unconcerned by what I see as such an obvious moral failure. In my view, one of the roots of human barbarism is the tendency to overestimate either human nature itself or the moral achievements of one's own culture.
- fyredge 2mo ago
  > Most countries—and, more specifically, the majority of their citizens—have not yet reached this stage of civilizational development. While I do agree, I don't believe that the reason is barbarism. My view is that the general public have been imbued with a sense of smallness. We see powerful men twist the world to suit themselves and yet we can't do anything ourselves, alone. The solution is to embrace our agency and organize. Collective action is necessary to counter authoritative threats. We can sit behind our desk all day and espouse the virtues of voting and to vote with out wallet, but fundamentally, they are individual actions with little power. Western Europe is slightly better in this case, where labour rights are better enforced and people have more free time. Sure, the shops are closed too early for our convenience, but that gives people the time and opportunity to organize locally for the betterment of themselves. But yes, we do need a cultural evolution, one of better awareness of our capabilities as citizens to organise and demand better of our leaders.
imtringued 2mo ago
>The solution then seems to be holding people in power accountable, no? How do you hold people in power accountable if you get sued by them when you criticize them? That's the biggest reason why politicians want a full name / ID verification policy on the internet. It's so they can easily locate and sue their political enemies.
- fyredge 2mo ago
  By fighting back in court. Better yet, by organising with others. I believe that it is in the interest of many to hold powerful people to account. Seek them out, share resources, organise a defense. It is not easy, and nothing good ever is. ID verification is pretty much a non-factor here. No one's listening to a politician who's real name is unknown. For all anyone knows, it could be a foreign actor / spy anyways.

yorwba 2mo ago

On the contrary, I don't think the current relative lack of arbitrary police brutality depends on the reasonableness of the people in power at all, only on the reasonableness of individual police officers. The police don't suddenly get softer when there's a left-wing government in power and tougher when there's a right-wing government. That "merely criticizing" the state gets you into an adversarial relationship is, I think, also overblown. For example, insulting someone is a crime in Germany. This is usually not enforced on children's playgrounds, so many remain unaware of this until adulthood. Then they might insult someone who is aware of the law (e.g. a representative of the state) in public and get surprised by a lawsuit. Similarly, spray-painting slogans on someone's house without permission will get prosecuted as vandalism. But if you stick to publishing in ways that normal people publish pro-state opinions, you can publish your criticism in the same way and nobody will bat an eye. (Certainly, a large number of people are criticizing the state in exactly this way at any given time, without being worse off for it.)

wasabi991011 2mo ago
> The police don't suddenly get softer when there's a left-wing government in power and tougher when there's a right-wing government. They absolutely can though, through hiring selection bias, training, firing, promotion criteria, bonuses, performance metrics and quotas, oversight enforcement or lack thereof, etc. It's not quick, but incentive structures can absolutely change an organizational culture.