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Yes! I think Fil is great so far but I think as he gets a bigger audience he should, well, consider that and focus on clarity a little more than humor. You can

by chaz72 2mo ago

Yes! I think Fil is great so far but I think as he gets a bigger audience he should, well, consider that and focus on clarity a little more than humor. You can see Andrew’s growth in that respect. Rust folks, this whole thing is a thread about Zig’s new feature - not even a memory safety-related feature! - and we cannot spend the whole damn time talking about Rust. Steve, even you - I don’t believe I have ever seen you say an unkind word. But have you considered that it may be unkind to have written more than half of the words on a thread about a Zig performance feature?

steveklabnik 2mo ago
> But have you considered that it may be unkind to have written more than half of the words on a thread about a Zig performance feature? Inherently? No! I commented specifically because I was really glad to see this post. This work that Zig is doing is very good, and I wanted to call that out, in part specifically because I am on "the other side" in whatever sense that is. Why would it be unkind for kind words to be coming from me?
- chaz72 2mo ago
  I do see that you often have kind words for Zig and some attempt to more precisely define the differences. What I mean is a bit different though, it’s that these arguments you get drawn into end up drowning out any real discussion of Zig’s progress. I don’t think that’s your intent but it is frustrating. I should be clear, I don’t think it’s wrong for you to defend yourself from accusations etc., I just wish it didn’t look like this. I wonder how much better HN would be if they took a page from other forum systems that said “you know what, this whole branch of stuff should be moved over here and renamed so the original topic can move on”. Sorry, all this may be unhelpful, I don’t know where the line should be, I’m just thinking out loud about the problem.
  - steveklabnik 2mo ago
    Ah, I see what you're saying. Oh, trust me, it's very frustrating for me as well. It is especially frustrating in these specific circumstances because I know that Ron and I will not come to an agreement, so...
NobodyNada 2mo ago
I think the derailment of this thread into "is Rust's memory safety good or not" is unfortunate and tedious (this debate must have happened hundreds of times by now on this site alone), but I also think it's unfair to lay the blame on Steve for this. Steve left a thoroughly glowing comment praising Zig's work on compiler performance, and comparing to his perspective on the early days of Rust. He mentioned in passing that he's not a Zig user due to preferring to work in memory-safe languages, which was polite, brief, clearly his personal position, and in my opinion an acceptable way to disclose his relationship with Zig without derailing the thread to be about memory safety. This comment spawned two subthreads. One of them was focused on the differences between Rust and Zig's compilation model, which is directly relevant to the article and illuminating regarding the engineering tradeoffs. In the other subthread, pron posted paragraphs and paragraphs arguing about what memory safety really means and whether or not Steve is right to have his opinion that Rust is "safe". This tangent had essentially nothing to do with the content of Steve's comment; it (and not Steve's initial comment) was the point where the thread was derailed from the topic of Zig's incremental compilation model. Steve responded politely in this thread to comments and questions directed at him, but did not fan the flames or take the thread further into off-topicness. If the moderators collapsed pron's comment or detached it and pinned it to the bottom of the page, this comment thread would be much better and much more respectful to the Zig project. I think the RESF trope is just about dead now; it's given way to the Rust Detractor Strike Force showing up to turn unrelated threads into tangential arguments about why Rust is bad.
upboatsy 2mo ago
[flagged]
imtringued 2mo ago
>Steve, even you - I don’t believe I have ever seen you say an unkind word. But have you considered that it may be unkind to have written more than half of the words on a thread about a Zig performance feature? You're accusing steve of what pron is doing... I mean look at how much text pron wrote, it is much more than steve wrote, and how pron is constantly skirting the edges of the HN guidelines.
- chaz72 2mo ago
  My reasoning, which you may not agree with, is that I think that I have seen pron say unkind words before and I thought I had a better chance of persuading Steve to let it go. (Sorry pron, that’s how I was thinking of it. No, I have no specific examples.) The fact is that every thread about Zig is filled with this kind of battle, and I’m tired of it, and it doesn’t represent any community, it’s so much worse on HN than anywhere else, and it’s all just defensiveness and crap.
  - steveklabnik 2mo ago
    I should let things go more often, it's a personal problem :) Thanks for the nudge, I'll consider it in the future.
    - tstack 2mo ago
      Let the healing begin!

by chaz72 2mo ago

steveklabnik 2mo ago

> But have you considered that it may be unkind to have written more than half of the words on a thread about a Zig performance feature? Inherently? No! I commented specifically because I was really glad to see this post. This work that Zig is doing is very good, and I wanted to call that out, in part specifically because I am on "the other side" in whatever sense that is. Why would it be unkind for kind words to be coming from me?

chaz72 2mo ago
I do see that you often have kind words for Zig and some attempt to more precisely define the differences. What I mean is a bit different though, it’s that these arguments you get drawn into end up drowning out any real discussion of Zig’s progress. I don’t think that’s your intent but it is frustrating. I should be clear, I don’t think it’s wrong for you to defend yourself from accusations etc., I just wish it didn’t look like this. I wonder how much better HN would be if they took a page from other forum systems that said “you know what, this whole branch of stuff should be moved over here and renamed so the original topic can move on”. Sorry, all this may be unhelpful, I don’t know where the line should be, I’m just thinking out loud about the problem.
- steveklabnik 2mo ago
  Ah, I see what you're saying. Oh, trust me, it's very frustrating for me as well. It is especially frustrating in these specific circumstances because I know that Ron and I will not come to an agreement, so...

NobodyNada 2mo ago

I think the derailment of this thread into "is Rust's memory safety good or not" is unfortunate and tedious (this debate must have happened hundreds of times by now on this site alone), but I also think it's unfair to lay the blame on Steve for this. Steve left a thoroughly glowing comment praising Zig's work on compiler performance, and comparing to his perspective on the early days of Rust. He mentioned in passing that he's not a Zig user due to preferring to work in memory-safe languages, which was polite, brief, clearly his personal position, and in my opinion an acceptable way to disclose his relationship with Zig without derailing the thread to be about memory safety. This comment spawned two subthreads. One of them was focused on the differences between Rust and Zig's compilation model, which is directly relevant to the article and illuminating regarding the engineering tradeoffs. In the other subthread, pron posted paragraphs and paragraphs arguing about what memory safety really means and whether or not Steve is right to have his opinion that Rust is "safe". This tangent had essentially nothing to do with the content of Steve's comment; it (and not Steve's initial comment) was the point where the thread was derailed from the topic of Zig's incremental compilation model. Steve responded politely in this thread to comments and questions directed at him, but did not fan the flames or take the thread further into off-topicness. If the moderators collapsed pron's comment or detached it and pinned it to the bottom of the page, this comment thread would be much better and much more respectful to the Zig project. I think the RESF trope is just about dead now; it's given way to the Rust Detractor Strike Force showing up to turn unrelated threads into tangential arguments about why Rust is bad.

upboatsy 2mo ago

[flagged]

imtringued 2mo ago

>Steve, even you - I don’t believe I have ever seen you say an unkind word. But have you considered that it may be unkind to have written more than half of the words on a thread about a Zig performance feature? You're accusing steve of what pron is doing... I mean look at how much text pron wrote, it is much more than steve wrote, and how pron is constantly skirting the edges of the HN guidelines.

chaz72 2mo ago
My reasoning, which you may not agree with, is that I think that I have seen pron say unkind words before and I thought I had a better chance of persuading Steve to let it go. (Sorry pron, that’s how I was thinking of it. No, I have no specific examples.) The fact is that every thread about Zig is filled with this kind of battle, and I’m tired of it, and it doesn’t represent any community, it’s so much worse on HN than anywhere else, and it’s all just defensiveness and crap.
- steveklabnik 2mo ago
  I should let things go more often, it's a personal problem :) Thanks for the nudge, I'll consider it in the future.
  - tstack 2mo ago
    Let the healing begin!