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Canceling "Hey"
- franze 2mo agothe discussed blogpost https://world.hey.com/dhh/wolves-sheep-and-gypsies-ba44af6a https://world.hey.com/dhh/wolves-sheep-and-gypsies-ba44af6a
- mplewis 2mo agoDisgusting. I want to say that DHH has fallen so far, but I don't actually see any evidence that he wasn't this hateful inside his heart years ago.
- MrDrone 2mo agoDHH has had a long decline, in my personal regard. A lot of things I ignored or gave grace for because of his early influence were actually clear signals about his fundamental beliefs.
- yzydserd 2mo agoHere he was last year championing the Far Right in England https://world.hey.com/dhh/as-i-remember-london-e7d38e64 https://world.hey.com/dhh/as-i-remember-london-e7d38e64
- mplewis 2mo agoYup. I followed his terrible behavior since his 2021 crashout, when he caused a third of his employees to leave his company, and he's only gotten louder and worse since. Looking back further, I can't see him actually supporting anything pro-social.
- pron 2mo agoOh, wow. > large gathering of perfectly normal, peaceful Brits Let's just say that when a Tommy Robinson crowd walk into a pub, the perfectly normal, peaceful Brits look for the exits.
- rsynnott 2mo agoAnd not even the faux-respectable far right, fucking Yaxley-Lennon.
- Exoristos 2mo agoFrom the blog: > They're still reeling from the Pakistani rape gangs that were left free to terrorize cities like Rotherham and Rochdale for years on end with horror-movie-like scenes of the most despicable, depraved abuse of British girls. I can see if you feel this was fabricated by the author, you'd have the negative reaction you're having. But this is much-reported, much-discussed fact. Maybe HN needs to read news sources besides HN.
- cholantesh 2mo agoI can't recall when the strongarmed union-busting happened at Basecamp, but it was a few years ago. Funnily enough, he kept patronizing Citations Needed well after. E: 2021, apparently; thanks mplewis.
- croes 2mo agoGiven the state of the world it doesn’t seem that the wolves are the ones out of control
- franze 2mo ago[deleted]
- eduction 2mo agoLibelous. He never says to shoot Roma. He says to deport foreigners who sleep in parks.
- franze 2mo agohe pairs the concepts
- deleted 2mo ago[deleted]
- mplewis 2mo agoeven if that WERE what he said, it would still be an incorrect and outsized response based in racial animus
- saghm 2mo agoHe says to deport literally an entire ethnic group independent of whether they happen to sleep in parks, which is the entire point being made by the article linked to by this page where we're commenting. The comment you're responding to also restates this, without making any claims about whether he said to shoot people, so your objection doesn't really make any sense in that regard either.
- eduction 2mo ago1. Comment says “shoot them” refers to Roma. Totally false and intentionally misleading. 2. Literally the only place the word deport is used in the post is here: “ When gypsies take over public spaces, you deport them” Please quote where he says to deport all Roma/gypsies.
- saghm 2mo ago
- kmeisthax 2mo agoThis is slightly less awful than what I imagined but still enough that I would never want to do do business with any company run by DHH anymore. Granted, I already have a dim view of Ruby and Ruby on Rails, and have never used any of DHH's software products, so my comment is a moral denouncement that carries no weight. Still, the dog whistling in this blog post is so loud I hear barking from the next door down. I don't exactly have on-the-ground knowledge of the exact situation in Copenhagen, but even just from what DHH describes, I'm pretty sure the solution can be solved through means less invasive than deporting homeless people. And just to be clear, I'm using the phrase "homeless people" rather than Europe's N-word because the problem is not where the people came from. Unless you want to pretend like Danish-born homeless are somehow way better, which would be a level of propagandistic bullshittery I don't even think Trump would stoop to. I also shouldn't have to explain why the actions to fix homelessness should not be identical or even analogous to the actions taken to manage an invasive wolf population. There is an actual problem DHH is vaguely grasping at: western countries have an exceptionally low state capacity despite their status on the world stage. The West is run by people who believe their job is to merely manage the decline of their terminally-ill trade empires until the pieces get inevitably packaged up and sold to ancap-esque autocrats of trade. And the social and economic structures undergirding the west, especially in Europe, have ossified to the point where there is not only no place for immigrants of any stripe, but even our own young can't fit in. But the answer to this problem that always gets attention is the people who want to burn that remaining state capacity on incredibly vengeful, petty, and stupid acts of bullying. "I don't care how poor I am as long as I have someone else's neck below my boot" is just a recipe for mass impoverishment.
- fhdkweig 2mo agoYour left nav doesn't have a scrollbar and doesn't fit on a 16:9 laptop screen.
- throwfaraway135 2mo agoIf you read canceling as part of the "cancel culture" and not canceling the subscription, then this two statements seam contradictory > Cancelling "Hey" > I definitely don't believe in trying to change people's minds by shouting at them or shaming them
- mplewis 2mo agoIt's about the author cancelling their subscription to "Hey."
- c0balt 2mo agoI'm not a native speaker but > I definitely don't believe in trying to change people's minds by shouting at them or shaming them seems to me like they want to make a (polite) argument instead of explicitly calling them “heretic” to quote the article. They also quite obviously seem to refer to cancellling the subscription here and not trying to invoke "cancel culture". The first few paragraphs make this quite clear.
- sudb 2mo agoI am a native speaker, I agree with this assessment.
- vikingly 2mo agoThe blogpost has the attitude problem of virtue signaling about decisions that has zero cost to themselves, about a communal kin based socialist society them know little about. Normal working families with kids live next to these parks and rely on them as open space, it is part of the Danish socialist welfare system and care for the working man. Defacation and open cooking plus thrash by not your own weak but foreigners has real cost to those that can’t afford to move.
- jorisw 2mo agoDownvoted for 'socialist society'. May want to read the Wikipedia entries on both Denmark and socialism.
- eduction 2mo ago[flagged]
- presbyterian 2mo agoYour comment suggests that all disagreements are equal. I would get email service from someone who likes Ruby more than Python, even if I disagree. I, like the author of the post, wouldn't get email from someone I knew was virulently racist as DHH is.
- RGS1811 2mo agoBased on the content of the post, it seems like it would be adequate to find an email platform run by people not vocally calling for the ethnic cleansing of minorities.
- eduction 2mo agoHe is calling for the deportation of illegal immigrants who sleep in parks. Cloudflare, in contrast, actively works with the CCP which is doing actual ethnic cleansing in Tibet and Xinjiang. But they are harder to cancel aren’t they. I’m a pragmatist. I’m not going to drive myself crazy interrogating the opinions of every service provider I use. I don’t know about the Fastmail founder or CEO’s beliefs and don’t want to.
- croes 2mo agoHe is calling for deportation of homeless migrants. He nowhere says they are illegal immigrants.
- saghm 2mo ago> He is calling for the deportation of illegal immigrants who sleep in parks. No, that's what this article is calling for. The complain they have is that DHH called for deporting the entire ethnic group independent of whether they're sleeping in parks.
- 2mo ago
- john_strinlai 2mo ago>created by industry legend DHH DHH = david heinemeier hansson (ruby on rails creator)
- Normal_gaussian 2mo ago[flagged]
- croes 2mo agoWhere is the shouting and shaming in the blog post?
- borromakot 2mo ago...thats his point. He doesn't want to shout and shame. So he wrote a blog post. "Hence" means, "therefore", as in "I didn't want to shout and shame, therefore I wrote this blog post"
- Normal_gaussian 2mo agoNo, I'm pointing out the author's hypocrisy.
- Normal_gaussian 2mo agoThis blog post is an exercise in publicly shaming Hey/DHH for their blog post. Which is fine. But there is significant hypocrisy in presenting as though you aren't doing exactly that.
- ChadNauseam 2mo agoI don't think I shouted at DHH or shamed him. Where did I do that? Is there a way to write a blog post disagreeing with someone that isn't shouting and shaming in your eyes?
- deleted 2mo ago[deleted]
- andrewflnr 2mo agoThis is trying far too hard to be charitable. Mistake theory is great, and it's good that the article mentions it, but it then also presents sufficient evidence to prove, or at least substantiate, malice. At this point not having "bad feelings toward DHH" is itself a "Missing Mood". At any rate, though, the author took the correct action. Wolves are also pretty important, by the way. Hopefully we all know that by now?
- presbyterian 2mo agoYeah, personally, it's hard to say "live and let live" about someone who doesn't want a people to live.
- FabHK 2mo ago> someone who doesn't want a people to live. Who doesn't want a people to live? Where do they say that?
- simianparrot 2mo agoSure but I don't want wolves eating my children.
- saghm 2mo ago> This is trying far too hard to be charitable. Mistake theory is great, and it's good that the article mentions it, but it then also presents sufficient evidence to prove, or at least substantiate, malice. The benefit of the doubt only exists as long as there is doubt. Once there's an overwhelming body of evidence that removes any of it, continuing to give it is pretty suspicious, like you mention.
- andrewflnr 2mo agoFor what it's worth, I do think the author is only guilty of being too kind. I wouldn't call it suspicious in this case.
- 2mo ago
- roughly 2mo agoI live in Oakland. Something I've noticed in a lot of the "THE CITY IS GOING TO HELL" commentary is that often people are pointing at visual symptoms - a homeless encampment, graffiti - as a proxy for "things are bad," and it doesn't take a lot of pulling on that thread before you get to "well just look at them," and it's real hard to cast that one in a "race-neutral" way. I've heard people complaining about hot dog vendors on the street as some kind of public nuisance, I've heard people point to wall murals as a sign of moral decay. Fine, that's your jam, that's what the suburbs are for, but if you don't like seeing poor people, make a society that doesn't create so goddamn many of them.
- fastball 2mo agoHomelessness is pretty race neutral tho? Especially in Oakland, which is incredibly race-balanced.
- mplewis 2mo agoabsolutely not, especially in the bay – people of color are way more likely to be homeless
- kazinator 2mo ago[flagged]
- adamrezich 2mo agoThe way you've stated this implies a structurally-enforced causality with regards to vagrancy in such a way that, wittingly or otherwise, wholly denies the possibility of individual agency in the very people you're ostensibly trying to defend.
- roughly 2mo agoI'm curious where you see the levers of individual agency here, and to what degree you think the affected people have tried to pull them. What's _your_ underlying thesis?
- windowshopping 2mo agoI used to admire that guy. I don't understand why anyone still works at Basecamp with posts like this to be honest. How do people justify it to themselves? Maybe it's just harder to switch jobs now with AI, I don't know.
- mcsniff 2mo agoPerhaps they agree with his opinion or they don't care about it?
- ribelo 2mo agoMaybe it's simply because his opinion is shared by many people and I would even say that he is pretty mild in expressing it?
- maleldil 2mo agoEqualling the Roma (and insisting on using a slur to refer to them) to wolves that need to be shot is mild?
- deleted 2mo ago[deleted]
- JeremyNT 2mo agoTo empathize a bit with the Basecamp employees, DHH has sort of slowly worked his way into the gutter racism that he displays openly now. Like a lot of his peers, the first Trump administration seemed to unlock a permission structure to be increasingly reactionary in public, facilitated by the overt political bias of Musk's X. We've now reached a point where this sort of "vice signaling" is a great way to gain clout in the overtly nativist tech bro niche in the US. Which is to say, he wasn't always like this, and it feels like each new blog post is getting worse in a way that, if I were at Basecamp, I might have initially overlooked as the frog was slowly boiled.
- xp84 2mo agoMaybe a lot of people actually agree with him, and would rather we expect more of people, rather than simply defining criminal activity as an unconscious effect of one's being somehow oppressed, or one's great-great-grandparents being oppressed, or whatever. The culture in question have been infamous for centuries for their value system which is incompatible with most others. Just as it's okay for devout Islamists to find the whole American value system disgusting and want nothing to do with it, it's okay for DHH and other Westerners to find the Roma value system disgusting. It's a belief system they choose, it's not something like skin that people cannot change. In America there's a lot of ethical ambiguity given how recently most current residents' ancestors arrived. But in Denmark? Did the Roma build that society? (Possible) EU citizenship aside, I find it hard to judge Danes who feel that ethically, they don't have a right to degrade that society with crime and vagrancy. Same as I don't blame English people who don't like certain things going on there. The article being referred to says "When gypsies take over public spaces, you deport them" - it doesn't say "you deport everyone of that race," it's about the people causing problems. If you allow literally any behavior, no matter how antisocial, bad actors will ruin everything for everyone. Only the most obtuse person doesn't recognize the truth of that, deep down.
- busterarm 2mo agoHey is the only way I can have a public, usable email account anymore. I maintain a self-hosted whitelist-only email account for sensitive work but email for other purposes just isn't tenable anymore. If someone else comes along with a better product maybe I'll consider it.
- jorisw 2mo agoI like Fastmail
- jdlshore 2mo agoI use Fastmail. It’s excellent, and only $114 for two years. (Just processed my renewal today.)
- soraminazuki 2mo agoYou're in luck because there are so many alternatives. Fastmail, Tuta Mail, Migadu, Proton, and I'm sure there are more.
- datakan 2mo ago[dead]
- moritzwarhier 2mo agoI was really wanting to read this, I had a morbid interest in Hey.com's cancellation policy. After 3+ paragraphs and an effin PG quote, there still is no point. There once were angry submissions (or comments?) here about how hard it is to cancel NYT. I was expecting the Hey-version of that, instead I got long-winded prose that sounds like a bunch of college boys trying to sound smart. No thanks. I guess the E-mail-service is still overpriced due to them believing in non-existent value of their web client. If that's the point of the article, sorry, I didn't make it far enough.
- yreg 2mo agoThe article doesn't mention Hey or the cancellation anywhere after the PG paragraph.
- moritzwarhier 2mo agoAh, I see, the post is about why, not how. Guess my language limits got me there. Still very hard to understand and I find hard to say it would be worth reading. Apart from the Gemini-like looking template.
- ChadNauseam 2mo agoThe site is hosted with Obsidian Publish which looked exactly like this far before Gemini existed
- moritzwarhier 2mo agoThanks for the info! I always wondered about Gemini's love for Tailwind, and found the aesthetics to feel very Vercel-like. But that doesn't mean it doesn't originate somewhere else. Looking at Obsidian, it seems to be an ideal training source for pairs of Markdown and HTML/CSS. But I don't wanna insinuate further, it's a summer evening and I made it outside. Have a good day/evening/night'
- deleted 2mo ago[deleted]
- politician 2mo ago[flagged]
- sp4cec0wb0y 2mo ago"your neighborhood is taken over by migrants" is a wild way of saying "associated with criminal behavior". This is yikes and so is your analysis.
- dofm 2mo agoThe blog post literally equates “gypsies” with animals. It’s not difficult. It’s beyond yikes territory: it’s his now typical xenophobia and bigotry. Now we know how the 1930s felt, I guess. Wealthy fair-haired motorsport brat edgelords were the leading edge of fascism then too.
- watt 2mo agoI think the author is taking umbrage with DHH using the word "gypsies" where it might have been "junkies" or just "homeless". I see it in Berlin, rise of agressive, smelly begging in U-Bahn (I witnessed a beggar actually attacking passengers, hitting a woman). People walking around having fully shit their pants. This, I presume, is tolerated in the name of individualism, that the individual is free to choose how they present themselves in the public, and walking around with pants fully shat must be some inalienable right. Area around Kottbusser Tor reeks of urine, and there's junkies fully out of it constantly screaming and fighting. Is somehow pointing this out is shameful and racist?
- deleted 2mo ago[deleted]
- jszymborski 2mo agoFirst and foremost, if DHH meant "junkies" or "homeless" by "gypsies", a term widely regarded as derogatory used to describe Romani people [0], then already there is plenty to take umbrage with. Second of all, homelessness and drug addiction are not moral failings. As the author says ".. there will be some who are good and some who are bad. This makes people very unlike wolves." I ask you to question whether the people who are "...walking around having fully shit their pants" should be deported, or treated for the conditions that ail them. The people aren't to be protected on some basis of "individualism", but on the basis that they are human people. Not animals. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people
- saaaaaam 2mo ago“Gypsies” are a race of people. “Junkies” and homeless people are, at an individual level, not. Homeless people and drug addicts may well be victims of circumstance or victims of society depending on your point view - or even victims of their own choices or actions - but there’s a difference between saying “this race of people is problematic” and “this class of people is problematic”.
- rwz 2mo agoNot that I disagree, but to play Devil's advocate for a second... I think DHH was trying to refer to junkies and homeless people most of whom happen to be immigrants. The immigration status is the particular attribute that invites usage of the term "gypsies" to signal that the problem with those particular junkies and homeless could be solved via immigration enforcement. At least in his eyes, I presume. Again, not defending his choice of words, just providing a somewhat plausible explanation as to how one might arrive to this specific terminology.
- lnxg33k1 2mo ago[flagged]
- mathgladiator 2mo agoYeah. I watched Seattle slide downhill, and I decided to leave. Find needles on the beach multiple times, and you simple stop caring about reasons and want action. Far right is a label being used for normal things like secure borders and safe cities.
- simianparrot 2mo agoFunny how Obama said the very same things and I'm pretty sure he wasn't far right.
- DrProtic 2mo agoHe deported and secured borders to such an extent he would definitely be called far right now.
- saghm 2mo agoThe article literally is making an argument to deport the people you're complaining about, just not literally everyone else who happens to be from the same ethnic group. I don't really understand why you'd have a problem with them saying that if that's what you actually care about.
- deleted 2mo ago[deleted]
- flockonus 2mo agoI do find the author position to be incoherent in the following regard: 1. believe a statement can be true or false, and false should be called out. 2. believe deportation is morally wrong in certain cases, that is, the law can be selectively broken. I personally believe laws should always be enforced and followed. That eliminates margin for corruption and lenience. A strong law also creates incentive for the population to care about the letter of the law and reforms, since it becomes a known fact that such law will be followed through. The worst of both worlds is a situation like in US or EU where immigrants "more or less" can settle, but live under constant pressure knowing there is no legal framework to support them, and deportation may come at any moment.
- sudb 2mo agoI think some of the trouble here is that the application of the law cannot be guaranteed to be free of discrimination or bias, regardless of the letter of the law itself?
- flumpcakes 2mo agoI think DHH's comments are pretty mild given the subject. However, I think it is how he frames his comments that cause offensive - lumping a (potentially) problematic (arguably) ethnic group of people in with animal control...
- triceratops 2mo ago> believe deportation is morally wrong in certain cases, that is, the law can be selectively broken. Except that that author didn't say that at all. They said "deport only the lawbreakers", while expressing dismay at a blogpost which (apparently*) said "deport everyone". > I personally believe laws should always be enforced and followed. Quote from TFA: "Any kind of mass deportation plan would have to change [the law], which would be legally tricky to say the least. However, enforcing the existing laws requires no legal action, and could start tomorrow if the relevant executive wanted it to." *Other comments have argued that the post didn't actually say that.
- flockonus 2mo ago
- deleted 2mo ago[deleted]
- kylemaxwell 2mo agoI think a lot of folks - myself included - canceled our Hey subscriptions years ago when DHH said some other unfortunate things. I don't have to agree with everyone on everything, not even people I do business with. But I do try to limit supporting people who have actively advocated for things that harm my family. Say what you will about Apple (where I transitioned), but they're the "least evil" option from my perspective. Others are of course welcome to their own perspectives and choices.
- badhackernews 2mo ago[dead]
- jakubadamw 2mo agoDHH’s blog post was, to put it simply, spot on. You disagree with that, and that’s fine. But to cancel a subscription for another service entirely, because someone used a blog platform of the same provider to publish something you were repulsed by – this seems like a really bizarre way of managing your emotion. By this logic I should feel compelled to delete my HN account, delete all my social media and cancel all press subscriptions…
- throwfaraway135 2mo ago[flagged]
- TimTheTinker 2mo ago"diversity" is a weasel word (often commits the motte-and-bailey fallacy) because it can easily mean different things at different times, making it prone to use as a political catch-all slogan. "Diversity is our strength" -- what kind of diversity? Within a company, diversity of purpose is not a strength, because you can't have people working at cross-purposes with one another. It's the same for countries, local communities, and families. "Diversity" can easily be used to describe what ultimately is "division", making it contradict the old saying in the USA "United we stand, divided we fall". Diversity of strengths/weaknesses, personalities, backgrounds (including ethnic), etc. all do make us stronger provided we maintain and prioritize a practical unity in a shared purpose.
- cholantesh 2mo ago'high-trust society' is quite often the same, as a sibling demonstrates. These two terms pretty much never appear simultaneously in an argument except as a dogwhistle.
- TimTheTinker 2mo agoI think the term "dogwhistle" should be retired. It's only ever used to dismiss someone's argument instead of engaging with them. Bad arguments should be quickly responded to and shown false. Calling them "dogwhistles" doesn't change anyone's opinion.
- AlotOfReading 2mo agoThe way you've written your comment implies "high trust societies" and (presumably ethnic) "diversity" are opposites. The terms high- and low- trust society come from Fukuyama, who considered ethnically homogenous countries like Korea low-trust, and ethnically diverse countries like the US and Germany high- trust. Please, go more into what you mean about social trust and how it relates to diversity.
- jjkaczor 2mo agoSigh. While every wolf may be a predator - that does not necessarily mean they are they are dangerous to all potential types of prey. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Never_Cry_Wolf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Never_Cry_Wolf
- worthless-trash 2mo agoIsn't prey by definition in danger. If you honestly believe what you're saying you're going to have a REALLY BAD TIME in the wild.
- jjkaczor 2mo agoDepends on the environment - in that book for example, Arctic wolves were not the cause of large (in physical size - the caribou) prey animal population decline, even though the "feelings" of the average person was that they must be the reason. Outside of fiction, wolves are not ravenous beasts that hunt everything and anything in sight. Predators do tend to go for the weak/sick, older or younger/inexperienced targets - they aren't stupid.
- worthless-trash 2mo agoYou're looking at the problem from the 5,000 foot view. Prey is whatever is at risk of being consumed. I have made no attempt at classifying wolves behavior in my comment. Edit: I do take the prey/predator relationship very seriously, I wrote about what I do here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46462101 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46462101
- jjkaczor 2mo agoBy that logic - every living being on the planet is - or can be prey for something else - and I am not disagreeing with that. But that 5,000 foot view of mine is more related to the original blog author using predator/prey as an analogy - it breaks down quickly when applied to humans. Nice comment! (I used to hunt - but not as intimately as your experience - you have a very skilled and serious background)
- elohssa 2mo agoThis whole article seems like a straw man. Chad seems to be arguing: 1. DHH thinks all gypsies are bad, therefor 2. DHH does not see Roma as individual people, therefor 3. DHH is a bad person. I read DHH's blog as: 1. It should still be illegal to camp in parks, therefor 2. People who do camp in parks should be housed, therefor 3. Foreigners who refuse housing should be deported.
- jorisw 2mo agoMy problem with the part about housing is that DHH acts as if cities have enough shelters to accommodate everyone and these 'gypsies' are refusing to go there. I don't buy that for a second.
- rwz 2mo agoI don't know about Copenhagen, but in US a significant fraction of the homeless population openly rejects various shelter and housing opportunities because those usually come with extra requirements for sobriety and commitments to addiction treatments. So yeah, there's definitely people who just refuse to go. Then there's also mentally ill people who operate in the grey zone of law — clearly too mentally ill to be prosecuted for their crimes (or haven't committed any crimes yet), can't be held in prison, but also too unstable and violent to be admitted to shelters with other, mostly normal disadvantaged people. One example of such case: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Eina_Kwon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Eina_Kwon
- jszymborski 2mo agoI don't even know where to begin with this comment...
- ChadNauseam 2mo agoIf he said "Foreigners who refuse housing should be deported." I would agree. Can you show me where he said that? I read "gypsies should be deported"
- ChadNauseam 2mo ago
- deleted 2mo ago[deleted]
- remywang 2mo agoIf anyone wants a great mail client, I highly recommend Mailmate which among other things lets you write messages in markdown: https://freron.com/ https://freron.com/ it’s maintained by a solo dev for 15+ years and charges a fair price
- kazinator 2mo ago> However, in any ethnicity of people, there will be some who are good and some who are bad. This is a strawman interpretation of anti-immigration arguments. Non-strawman anti-immigration positions are that immigrants are a problem even if they are all "good". If you care about getting rid of "bad" people, then you have to evenhandedly apply the rule, even to those who have ethnic roots in the country going back a hundred generation: take those "bad" people too and strip them of citizenship. Where in the world is immigration driven by "good" or "bad"; I mean, where do documents like visitor visas and residency permits lapse due to badness rather than the mere passage of time, whereby the individual not able to extent has to go, whether they are "good" or "bad"? What is "bad"? Does "bad" have to be armed robbery? Or is someone also "bad" if they settle in Japan, and then demand that schools remove pork from school lunch? Unwanted immigration can simply be the raw numbers: 500 immigrants not being a problem, but 500,000 being a problem, all else being held equal, including "goodness". You can be deemed undesirable not because who you are but entirely because you're part of a group with 499,999 others. From the individual's point of view, it is unfair; that is true, and it isn't meant to be.
- flumpcakes 2mo agoI think DHH's opinion is a very common sentiment in Europe. "Gypsies" are a very European thing. I wonder if there's anything similar in the US? For context for US readers; they generally exist outside of the usual social norms, and have a pretty bad reputation because of it. This is not a defence of DHH, just providing context to his comments.
- Ar-Curunir 2mo agoAs if the social norms only flow one way (gypsies excluding themselves) and not the other way (white Europeans excluding them).
- pm3003 2mo agoThere are in a lot of EU countries sets of laws to integrate gypsies, but it's a hard problem, e.g. schooling kids who move town every three months. I think the gypsies he's referring to might be a particular set of organised beggar gangs exploiting gypsies from Romania, Bulgaria and generally central Europe in European cities since the early 2000s, and not the usual seasonal workers from these and other gypsy communities. But I haven't been to Copenhagen in a while.
- flumpcakes 2mo agoI don't understand your comment - the social norms I refer to are paying tax, sending your children to school, integrating with the local community, living in areas/accommodation that is legal/not transitory. It can be argued how many of those are valid criticisms, but that is what generally refer to.
- phillipcarter 2mo agoHis opinion that their behavior is undesirable and should be dealt with is common. His comparison to them as wolf-like predators (and you shoot wolves), previous posts about mass deportation and forced remigration ... no, most Europeans aren't veering strongly into hard-right territory.
- OkayPhysicist 2mo ago
- eduction 2mo agoOne thing this post never does is actually meaningfully argue with the core idea of the post that so outraged them. Which is: If someone comes illegally to your country and ends up sleeping in parks, they should be deported. I don’t know if I agree with that but the post seems to take it for granted that any reasonable person cannot. To me this is more a fashion statement than an argument. Advocating deportations is automatically bad, using the word “gypsy” is automatically offensive. It’s silly. Pretty much everyone has some line of behavior at which they advocate deportation, and can anyone here who is upset actually explain why “Roma” is less offensive than “Gypsy”? There are PhDs in Eastern European history who can’t do that.
- ChadNauseam 2mo ago> Which is: If someone comes illegally to your country and ends up sleeping in parks, they should be deported. That doesn't enrage me, in fact I agree with it. But no one in this story came illegally to Denmark. I'm not sure what gave you that impression. And I read DHH to be saying that more people than just the specific ones sleeping in parks should be deported.
- borromakot 2mo agoIt is sad that such a song and dance is required when anyone with half a brain can read the racism in DHH's post. Imagine a scenario that a black family moved into your neighborhood and started causing a bunch of problems. There are no other black people in the neighborhood. It should take you a picosecond to figure out which one of these is obviously racist and which isn't: "We need to remove the black people from our neighborhood" "We need to remove the new family from our neighborhood" People like "well he has a good point they are causing problems" so technically the set of "black people" and "people who are currently causing problems in our neighborhood" are the same set. This is irrelevant.
- adamrezich 2mo ago[flagged]
- anal_reactor 2mo ago[flagged]
- tim333 2mo agoI think a lot is about a group with a particular behaviour. I'm in central London and we have all races and nationalities - black, white, arab, muslim, chinese, everything really but it's only the Roma that camped in my local square and do organised begging. And it isn't just how they are - they are shipped in by organisers by the coach load to beg awhile and give a cut to the organisers.
- tuesdaynight 2mo agoI will say something that I made peace with: these are part of the new normal. This one is even light in front of everything else. Look at the supposed most richest person on Earth comments. And it will get worse. I'm seeing political people public calling the ending of the suffrage for women. People sharing memes about Jewish people with the same underlying message as dark web board messages of 2010s. And I'm not talking about a specific group. This is going all over the political spectrum. Part of me thinks that there will be a time where progressives will have to choose their radicals. I hope that it happens after my death.
- wertals 2mo agoYou don't need to express the issues like DHH did, but there are problems in the EU that weren't there 20 years ago. The former European Community core states are too small and cannot handle the influx of millions from the East and the South. The core states should leave the EU and reestablish the former European Community, which would help the populations as opposed to multinational locust companies. It isn't fair that the whole world (mind you, including rich foreigners) buys up apartments, takes jobs and displaces the original population.
- tlogan 2mo agoIt is a long blog post, but the controversy seems to center on DHH’s language and reasoning about Roma people. My reading is that he used those examples deliberately to raise a broader issue: some people are tired of being told to ignore problems they can see and experience, whether that means feeling unsafe while walking through a city or attending a Pride parade (assume that are the “wolfs”), or being frustrated that nearly every item at Target is locked up (“gypsies”). To be clear, I am not expressing an opinion on whether his argument is right or wrong.
- hobonation 2mo ago[flagged]
- Biganon 2mo agoTIL Pakistani and Rroms are the same people.
- jsdevtom 2mo agoThe article says: > You do not need to deport all of them to deport the ones who "take over public spaces". And continues to assume that DHH is talking about mass deportation. He's not. He says: > When gypsies take over public spaces, you deport them. He's not saying we should deport _all_ gypsies just because one group is taking over public space.
- ChadNauseam 2mo agoCan you explain how that's analogous to what he thinks we should do to wolves? Does he think that we should only shoot the wolves that are causing problems and leave the innocent majority of wolves alone?
- dcanelhas 2mo agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem Facts alone won't get you to answers about what you should do about something. Whether your personal view is that the solution to low income migrants entering your country should be outright genocide, deportation, societal integration, welfare, or something else - it's not going to be based on a statement of fact. A fact is that the elderly who have retired from the workfrorce are no longer contributing to the national wealth, they're also using the public health system more than any other demographic. Clearly we should...
- etempleton 2mo agoI was disappointed to read this and hear language and using allusions that parallel arguments made by hate groups. I think DHH can take a stance that overly lax immigration policy has led to issues, if that is what he believes. That may be true, I don’t know, and I have no issues with policy debate around that, but directly comparing a specific race of emigrant people as wolves preying on native peoples, sheep is pretty gross.
- steve_adams_86 2mo agoOne of the many holes in DHH's claim about wolves, sheep, and gypsies is that wolves are not the sort of low-dimensional archetype he uses to support his narrative. If you're very literal like me, you take that to mean wolves, the mammal; a predatory animal living within a food web, fulfilling a particular role at its trophic level which is ultimately beneficial to the system it's a part of. Wolves don't independently get 'out of control' such that they need to be shot. This has been demonstrated across North America and Europe. The perception of wolves being out of control is largely subjective and misguided, and the result of 1. humans encroaching on wild land, 2. human activity limiting wolves' access to food, and 3. humans fearing wolves and wanting there to be fewer of them. Through this lens, comparing immigrants to wolves is absurd. It becomes clear that DHH is discarding a lot of context in order to weave a fearful narrative which uses invalid, fictional mechanisms to make his point. The use of the terms gypsies and sheep also comes with issues. It's a poor piece of writing, lacks any compelling substance (assuming you aren't swayed by him), and largely demonstrates that he's not particularly thoughtful about this while lacking the self-awareness and comprehension to notice how weak his position is. It's okay to want reduced immigration. It's okay to want to preserve certain things in your society. It's not necessary or reasonable to do so through this lens, however. There are plenty of compelling arguments to make for regulating these systems in local, regional, and national government. It's okay to want that. When you start describing immigrants as dangerous animals, you've gone many steps too far off of a sensible path. I also understand the use of fables to communicate moral and ethical stories, which seems to be a component in his narrative. However, he steps out of that bound when he talks about literal wolves (and the need to shoot them). Yet fables are a coarse tool, not an intricate one, and they're far too reductive to support an argument against immigration across a continent. It's an absurd position to argue from, and in terms of narrative, it makes DHH seem either obtuse or very hateful and disingenuous. I've never read anything of his since this piece.
- pm3003 2mo agoNot trying to counter your main point but the biological wolf analogy is quite close to the author's point. The wolf population development has been known to exceed every prediction in Western Europe, and while it's fairly inoffensive for humans the economic consequences are much higher than most anticipated, for economic/ecologic benefits that are hard to defend. And the wolf population are still fairly low. In my opinion maybe the money spent protecting wolves (hundreds of millions per year in Europe) would be better spent on homeless shelters and similar policies. Still this article should remind every European of the Nazis comparing the Jewish diaspora dispersal with the historical dissemination of black and brown rats.
- Cider9986 2mo agoThis should not have been flagged. There's not even any flagged comments.
- ChadNauseam 2mo agoI don't know the rules for what does and doesn't get flagged. I tried to write it in a respectful way without resorting to personal attacks.
- yreg 2mo agoI think people have flagged it simply because the topic attracts the kind of discussion hn usually tries to avoid. Guidelines: > Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. (To be clear, I'm not saying I think you did anything wrong)
- ChadNauseam 2mo agoFair enough. If it's against the rules, I won't post things like this on hacker news anymore.
- yreg 2mo agoI don't believe it's against the rules, but rather part of the community is often self moderating to keep politics adjacent topics off the front page.
- Cider9986 2mo agoReply: The original post is about ideology, and the discussion thread includes battle over every controversial ideological topic you can think of. There are certainly many flagged, guidelines-breaking comments now, just as we'd expect for an article written in this way. It's just not the kind of topic that can inspire curious conversation on HN. Tom (Moderator)
- unethical_ban 2mo ago
- k310 2mo agoWelcome to America, where we blame victims. Once again, it's projection. Strong people raise others up. Weak people seek to cut others down. Look in the mirror. What do you see? Jpeg at imgbb.com https://i.ibb.co/yBmnPGbf/epstein-mirror.jpg https://i.ibb.co/yBmnPGbf/epstein-mirror.jpg
- whatthesmack 2mo agoI see a fake image with a fake narrative.
- yourapostasy 2mo agoFor a hot second I thought the OP was going to share a way to silently suppress chats that start with "Hi", or "Hey".
- zahrevsky 2mo agoYeah, the title is really misleading. I thought the same at first, and then I also thought that this will be a review of the actual “Hey” email client.
- tasuki 2mo ago> if I give someone inaccurate medical advice, that is not only false, it is false and harmful I don't understand what's so special about legal and medical advice that it's so singled out in certain parts of the world. All kinds of advice people give can be harmful, such as eg cooking and dietary advice. Yet it's ok to tell people how to cook, but for whatever reason it's not ok to tell people to make sure they stay well-hydrated when they have a cold. [Edit:] But gee does the rest of the article hit hard. The "missing mood" in particular.
- ChadNauseam 2mo agoI think it's hard to do significant harm with bad cooking advice. Unless the advice was absolutely terrible like "eat only raw potatoes". But that's pretty rare. On the other hand many people can think of someone who was harmed seriously by bad medical advice. Steve Jobs is a famous example. (I'm the author of the article)
- squigz 2mo agoGenerally speaking, bad medical or legal advice has much higher potential to have far-reaching consequences - much more so than giving bad cooking advice.
- tasuki 2mo agoBut also good medical advice has a high potential to have far-reaching positive consequences. Telling people not to forget to hydrate shouldn't be controversial. Shouldn't we be on the side of good advice rather than on the side of no legal or medical advice?
- squigz 2mo agoSure - and a really good indicator for whether the advice is good is, "is this person educated and licensed to talk about this?" To say nothing of whether that person has the necessary - often lengthy - context necessary to provide good advice.
- DrProtic 2mo ago[flagged]
- joshcsimmons 2mo agoStrange logic and strange days we live in. Typically I just spend money on software that works the best and suits my needs. I don't generally research the individual creating it. We should all know less about eachother!
- omnimus 2mo agoIt's not strange at all. For example if your money are used for political causes you don't like then you should absolutely send the money to alternatives instead.
- tastyface 2mo agoIt was much easier when the CEOs didn't gleefully out themselves as white supremacists on their own corporate social media.
- subsistence234 2mo ago[flagged]
- subsistence234 2mo agoDestroying the public space this way results in only the rich being able to escape the constant stress, squalor, random violence. For some reason that's "progressive." If you believe that even the non-rich, of all ethnicities, should have access to peace, beauty, and safety: you're a "white supremacist!"
- f33d5173 2mo agoOne seemingly deliberately conflation this post commits is betwee "gypsy" and "roma". The first as a set of actions, the second as an ethnicity divorced from any action of behaviour. Dhh refers to the first, and uses the first word. The fine article interprets it to mean the second, and correspondingly substitutes the second word. But dhh makes it clear what he means by "gypsy", so one can only interpret this conflation as deliberate.
- linuxhiker 2mo ago"Well, my understanding of Denmark is that they also don't have the will to start doing mass deportations of EU citizens, and DHH is advocating to change that. " https://www.infomigrants.net/en/post/69582/denmark-moves-towards-enacting-law-to-deport-criminal-foreigners-more-easily https://www.infomigrants.net/en/post/69582/denmark-moves-tow... No opinion, just statement for your records.
- em-bee 2mo agothat link talks about non-EU citizens. the people discussed in the topic are EU citizens.
- scribblenot 2mo ago[flagged]
- AlotOfReading 2mo agoYes, all those non-European ethnic people in the low trust societies of 1990s Spain and Italy. Fukuyama's argument was that any form of factional identity breaks down social trust, including say, identifying a subset of the population as "white/European people". He's not advocating for ethnostates. I'd suggest reading it, except it's as bad as all the rest of Fukuyama's works. The only reason I even brought it up is to highlight that these terms didn't originate the way they're being used. We can all see the intended meaning in these discussions.
- scribblenot 2mo ago[flagged]
- scribblenot 2mo ago[flagged]
- scribblenot 2mo ago[flagged]
- scribblenot 2mo ago[flagged]
- deleted 2mo ago[deleted]
- heyaco 2mo ago[flagged]
- KevinMS 2mo ago[flagged]
- tastyface 2mo agoOnly in response to some truly rancid vice signaling.
- AlexeyBelov 2mo agoRightoids love this phrase for some reason, idk why. Like it's totally a bad thing. "He tries to be good, what a piece of shit"
- tastyface 2mo agoA lot of folks on the right seem to believe that virtue doesn't exist without an element of self-interest. They're telling on themselves, of course.
- jocelyner 2mo ago[dead]
- BradBird 2mo agoRelated... https://world.hey.com/dhh/basecamp-s-new-etiquette-regarding-societal-politics-at-work-b44bef69 https://world.hey.com/dhh/basecamp-s-new-etiquette-regarding...
- throwawaypath 2mo agoThis DHH guy doesn't seem to care about woke scolding. His opinions are so controversial, something like 40% of Europeans agree. Based, I'm moving everything to Hey.com.
- slenk 2mo agoMan...do I need to switch from Omarchy now