5 ms·

The Fedora 45 Sausage Factory

158 points by 6581 2mo ago

mdlxxv 2mo ago
Truly a "Beefy Miracle". https://web.archive.org/web/20230112002240/https://beefymiracle.org/ https://web.archive.org/web/20230112002240/https://beefymira...
cube00 2mo ago
This kind of end to end documentation is invaluable when you're trying to troubleshoot. I had a service complaining about the root file permissions which changed between Fedora versions [1]. I was never able to figure out what produced the file system image but thanks so this guide I know where to start looking now. [1]: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2402944#c1 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2402944#c1
einpoklum 2mo ago
[flagged]
- jcastro 2mo ago
  That's most of the entire planet using Linux.
  - root-parent 2mo ago
    And social media and fast food...does not mean its good for you...
    - rogerrogerr 2mo ago
      I’m out of the loop on this, not trying to ignite a holy war, but what’s the gist of the anti-systemd stance?
      - miloshadzic 2mo ago
        New thing bad
        shalg 2mo ago
        It’s 16 years old and just as old are the criticisms?????
        root-parent 2mo ago
        Is that a technical argument for the excellence of Windows products? :-))
      - shalg 2mo ago
        It’s at odds with the philosophy of do one thing and do it well. Its monolithic feature set pushes out smaller contributors and leads to increased reliance on a singular package. This tends to self reinforce. I also use systemd in my current distro so not sure where I stand on this but it’s a fair concern.
        oblio 2mo ago
        Everything on modern OSes is at odds with the Unix philosophy ("do one thing well"), including *nix. ls has more flags than a Soviet military parade.
      - root-parent 2mo ago
        Before systemd I had Redhat machines with 3 to 4 years of uptime, and now you need to restart Linux after updates....while Windows people rarely and they laugh at you...
        amlib 2mo ago
        If you use the command line to do the update there is no need to reboot, however, the issues that the offline update is trying to solve still stands. Some programs can crash when all their files are suddenly swapped for new ones. I've seen multiple linux systems bork themselves during an update because the update itself caused the desktop session to crash, which caused the update process to be interrupted just as it was modifying some crucial files, thus rendering the system unbootable.
- rwmj 2mo ago
  Just use another distro without systemd, no one cares.
  - root-parent 2mo ago
    People who dont care use Windows.
- root-parent 2mo ago
  [flagged]
  - robmusial 2mo ago
    It's probably being downvoted and flagged because it's off topic to the post and adds no substance which is against site rules.
    - root-parent 2mo ago
      Its not off topic, as reply to the comment, the post is replying.
      - unethical_ban 2mo ago
        It's absolutely off-topic to moan about systemd on every post about Linux. If there was a complaint about how systemd complicated builds and tests in a specific way the commenter could name, that'd be valid. Just finger-wagging is tiring after how many, 10 years?
        einpoklum 2mo ago
        We moan about Microsoft's horrid choices with its operating choices, already for, what, let's say 40 years now? 45? When they cut it out, start using standards, stop forcing crap onto their users (not all of Windows is crap; a lot of it is quite solid), stop with the spying and surveillance, and of course make the code FOSS, then we'll stop the moaning. It's similar for systemd. It's a poor architectural choice and it needs to be undone. And that's ignoring the personal drama surrounding it over the years which, indeed, needs to be let go by now. As for topicality: This post is about the "sausage" that is a distribution. Following this metaphor and mentioning a problem with a certain kind of sausage is on-topic.
        unethical_ban 2mo ago
        I think the differences are several: * The opinion that systemd is bad is more controversial here than the opinion that Microsoft is an unethical company with intentionally invasive software. * There are Linux distributions that do not use systemd
- lutoma 2mo ago
  One of the best things to happen to the Linux ecosystem in a long time.
  - root-parent 2mo ago
    The best example of suck, and that forced you to restart Linux machines after an update, something that was not the case before... you little ducklings... https://suckless.org/sucks/systemd/ https://suckless.org/sucks/systemd/ https://without-systemd.org/wiki/index_php/Arguments_against_systemd/ https://without-systemd.org/wiki/index_php/Arguments_against...
hangrybear666 2mo ago
So as a relatively fresh Fedora user (2024) who just sold their Windows PC (2025) and is in love with the OS, where would be a good place to look for areas to contribute in? Is there a place where Fedora maintainers write down what parts of the pipeline are in need of volunteers?
- supakeen 2mo ago
  There's a guide! It's here: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/join/ https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/join/ (or: https://fedoramagazine.org/how-to-contribute-to-fedora/ https://fedoramagazine.org/how-to-contribute-to-fedora/) Personally I feel a good way to get involved is to test updates in bodhi for those packages you care about, or to take part in the process that happens around release time where we go through several freeze cycles and have 'blocker bugs' that need their fixes to be validated: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:SOP_blocker_bug_process https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:SOP_blocker_bug_process
- q8zd3 2mo ago
  I would recommend to look at Fefora's infra "backlog": https://forge.fedoraproject.org/infra/tickets/issues https://forge.fedoraproject.org/infra/tickets/issues
WesolyKubeczek 2mo ago
> Every build starts from a clean room. You can never get a different result because someone installed something on the builder last week. At least 6 years ago, this was not entirely true: a package happened to build only because, by happy accident, the builder had a dependency installed by something else. Since the dependency was not in its Build-Requires:, the build would fail in COPR, which really used a clean room. A case of being saved by the alphabetic order, I guess? Maybe they have updated Koji since.
- supakeen 2mo ago
  Mmm, COPR and Koji I think use the same mock configs but someone else would have to confirm that :) It's definitely possible that one of a packages build dependencies pulls in something that a package /should/ depend on and then when it drops it suddenly the build fails. That's why I think we mostly want 'autogenerated' BuildRequires nowadays that are generated based on the upstream source or packaging format to make that less of a figuring out excercise.
hnmu4c5zar 2mo ago
[flagged]
28304283409234 2mo ago
Meanwhile the bluewashing seems to be keeping a steady pace. https://techrights.org/n/2026/07/22/IBM_is_Not_Done_Destroying_Red_Hat_Wait_Till_October_1_2006_Mor.shtml https://techrights.org/n/2026/07/22/IBM_is_Not_Done_Destroyi...
- setopt 2mo ago
  I haven’t followed the news. Sounds like IBM is bad news for Fedora long term?
  - trentor 2mo ago
    I don't want to be hyper critical but was there ever a project that got better after being acquired by IBM?
    - xorcist 2mo ago
      While probably true, I'm not sure how much Fedora can be owned really. We should give credit where credit is due though: IBM has, together with Intel, Red Hat, and a few others, been very supportive of the Linux ecosystem since early on. Their scalability work, their GPLing of code, and upstreaming of said code, did a lot for people to look at Linux seriously. There are obviously people inside IBM who understand this stuff. So there should be hope.
- TazeTSchnitzel 2mo ago
  Techrights are hard to take seriously, the site's author has such a bad case of that polemic tendency that he lost a libel case because he wouldn't stop harassing someone (https://caselaw.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ewhc/kb/2025/3063 https://caselaw.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ewhc/kb/2025/3063).
  - Vegemeister 2mo ago
    In the UK, a country known for its lack of press freedom. And the plaintiff was Matthew Garret, who has a past record of changing the words of other people's comments on his blog. The allegations of sockpuppetry are not inconsistent with his character. That said, I recognize that the prose on that website is highly schizo-coded, so it should probably be considered unreliable on that account.

158 points by 6581 2mo ago

Truly a "Beefy Miracle". https://web.archive.org/web/20230112002240/https://beefymiracle.org/ https://web.archive.org/web/20230112002240/https://beefymira...

cube00 2mo ago

This kind of end to end documentation is invaluable when you're trying to troubleshoot. I had a service complaining about the root file permissions which changed between Fedora versions [1]. I was never able to figure out what produced the file system image but thanks so this guide I know where to start looking now. [1]: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2402944#c1 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2402944#c1

einpoklum 2mo ago

[flagged]

jcastro 2mo ago
That's most of the entire planet using Linux.
- root-parent 2mo ago
  And social media and fast food...does not mean its good for you...
  - rogerrogerr 2mo ago
    I’m out of the loop on this, not trying to ignite a holy war, but what’s the gist of the anti-systemd stance?
    - miloshadzic 2mo ago
      New thing bad
      - shalg 2mo ago
        It’s 16 years old and just as old are the criticisms?????
        root-parent 2mo ago
        Is that a technical argument for the excellence of Windows products? :-))
    - shalg 2mo ago
      It’s at odds with the philosophy of do one thing and do it well. Its monolithic feature set pushes out smaller contributors and leads to increased reliance on a singular package. This tends to self reinforce. I also use systemd in my current distro so not sure where I stand on this but it’s a fair concern.
      - oblio 2mo ago
        Everything on modern OSes is at odds with the Unix philosophy ("do one thing well"), including *nix. ls has more flags than a Soviet military parade.
    - root-parent 2mo ago
      Before systemd I had Redhat machines with 3 to 4 years of uptime, and now you need to restart Linux after updates....while Windows people rarely and they laugh at you...
      - amlib 2mo ago
        If you use the command line to do the update there is no need to reboot, however, the issues that the offline update is trying to solve still stands. Some programs can crash when all their files are suddenly swapped for new ones. I've seen multiple linux systems bork themselves during an update because the update itself caused the desktop session to crash, which caused the update process to be interrupted just as it was modifying some crucial files, thus rendering the system unbootable.
rwmj 2mo ago
Just use another distro without systemd, no one cares.
- root-parent 2mo ago
  People who dont care use Windows.
root-parent 2mo ago
[flagged]
- robmusial 2mo ago
  It's probably being downvoted and flagged because it's off topic to the post and adds no substance which is against site rules.
  - root-parent 2mo ago
    Its not off topic, as reply to the comment, the post is replying.
    - unethical_ban 2mo ago
      It's absolutely off-topic to moan about systemd on every post about Linux. If there was a complaint about how systemd complicated builds and tests in a specific way the commenter could name, that'd be valid. Just finger-wagging is tiring after how many, 10 years?
      - einpoklum 2mo ago
        We moan about Microsoft's horrid choices with its operating choices, already for, what, let's say 40 years now? 45? When they cut it out, start using standards, stop forcing crap onto their users (not all of Windows is crap; a lot of it is quite solid), stop with the spying and surveillance, and of course make the code FOSS, then we'll stop the moaning. It's similar for systemd. It's a poor architectural choice and it needs to be undone. And that's ignoring the personal drama surrounding it over the years which, indeed, needs to be let go by now. As for topicality: This post is about the "sausage" that is a distribution. Following this metaphor and mentioning a problem with a certain kind of sausage is on-topic.
        unethical_ban 2mo ago
        I think the differences are several: * The opinion that systemd is bad is more controversial here than the opinion that Microsoft is an unethical company with intentionally invasive software. * There are Linux distributions that do not use systemd
lutoma 2mo ago
One of the best things to happen to the Linux ecosystem in a long time.
- root-parent 2mo ago
  The best example of suck, and that forced you to restart Linux machines after an update, something that was not the case before... you little ducklings... https://suckless.org/sucks/systemd/ https://suckless.org/sucks/systemd/ https://without-systemd.org/wiki/index_php/Arguments_against_systemd/ https://without-systemd.org/wiki/index_php/Arguments_against...

hangrybear666 2mo ago

So as a relatively fresh Fedora user (2024) who just sold their Windows PC (2025) and is in love with the OS, where would be a good place to look for areas to contribute in? Is there a place where Fedora maintainers write down what parts of the pipeline are in need of volunteers?

supakeen 2mo ago
There's a guide! It's here: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/join/ https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/join/ (or: https://fedoramagazine.org/how-to-contribute-to-fedora/ https://fedoramagazine.org/how-to-contribute-to-fedora/) Personally I feel a good way to get involved is to test updates in bodhi for those packages you care about, or to take part in the process that happens around release time where we go through several freeze cycles and have 'blocker bugs' that need their fixes to be validated: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:SOP_blocker_bug_process https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:SOP_blocker_bug_process
q8zd3 2mo ago
I would recommend to look at Fefora's infra "backlog": https://forge.fedoraproject.org/infra/tickets/issues https://forge.fedoraproject.org/infra/tickets/issues

WesolyKubeczek 2mo ago

> Every build starts from a clean room. You can never get a different result because someone installed something on the builder last week. At least 6 years ago, this was not entirely true: a package happened to build only because, by happy accident, the builder had a dependency installed by something else. Since the dependency was not in its Build-Requires:, the build would fail in COPR, which really used a clean room. A case of being saved by the alphabetic order, I guess? Maybe they have updated Koji since.

supakeen 2mo ago
Mmm, COPR and Koji I think use the same mock configs but someone else would have to confirm that :) It's definitely possible that one of a packages build dependencies pulls in something that a package /should/ depend on and then when it drops it suddenly the build fails. That's why I think we mostly want 'autogenerated' BuildRequires nowadays that are generated based on the upstream source or packaging format to make that less of a figuring out excercise.

hnmu4c5zar 2mo ago

[flagged]

28304283409234 2mo ago

Meanwhile the bluewashing seems to be keeping a steady pace. https://techrights.org/n/2026/07/22/IBM_is_Not_Done_Destroying_Red_Hat_Wait_Till_October_1_2006_Mor.shtml https://techrights.org/n/2026/07/22/IBM_is_Not_Done_Destroyi...

setopt 2mo ago
I haven’t followed the news. Sounds like IBM is bad news for Fedora long term?
- trentor 2mo ago
  I don't want to be hyper critical but was there ever a project that got better after being acquired by IBM?
  - xorcist 2mo ago
    While probably true, I'm not sure how much Fedora can be owned really. We should give credit where credit is due though: IBM has, together with Intel, Red Hat, and a few others, been very supportive of the Linux ecosystem since early on. Their scalability work, their GPLing of code, and upstreaming of said code, did a lot for people to look at Linux seriously. There are obviously people inside IBM who understand this stuff. So there should be hope.
TazeTSchnitzel 2mo ago
Techrights are hard to take seriously, the site's author has such a bad case of that polemic tendency that he lost a libel case because he wouldn't stop harassing someone (https://caselaw.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ewhc/kb/2025/3063 https://caselaw.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ewhc/kb/2025/3063).
- Vegemeister 2mo ago
  In the UK, a country known for its lack of press freedom. And the plaintiff was Matthew Garret, who has a past record of changing the words of other people's comments on his blog. The allegations of sockpuppetry are not inconsistent with his character. That said, I recognize that the prose on that website is highly schizo-coded, so it should probably be considered unreliable on that account.