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It will take a 'baby elephant' to knock over this bike [video]
- spupy 14y ago> a bike using technology found on the International Space Station and the Hubble Space Telescope - gyroscopes Holly cow, gyroscopes! The technology of space travel!
- cjwebb 14y agoThat looks very cool. It would be interesting to see at what speeds it can survive collisions, and still remain upright.
- huhtenberg 14y agoAnd there's no chance that gyros (abruptly) stop, because... ? (edit) OK, let's make "abruptly" optional. So what's the contingency plan for when gyros spin down and stop?
- sdoering 14y agoWell. And what when AirBags stop working, or anti traction in cars, or... Every technology might fail. And every device will fail. And it does so in cars, in planes, in trains or whatever. That's why (so do I believe), they built two gyros in there. One for fail-save-mode.
- kayoone 14y agoStill if the traction system in cars fails you dont fall over and and lie on the street immobile. They have a second one for fail safety, but i think there could relatively easily be a case where both fail, like no energy for whatever reason.
- Xylakant 14y agoGyros spin very fast on very efficient bearings. A rotating mass will not stop immediately unless forced to do so. So even when power fails completely, the gyro will continue to rotate for quite some time (several minutes probably) and fulfill it's purpose - well, unless something penetrates the gyro housing and blocks the spinning wheel. But then I guess your problem is not limited to falling over. Another issue with fast spinning disks is that they can rupture and send splinters flying, but it's rather unlikely that both gyros fail in the same catastrophic way at the same time.
- bathat 14y agoIt does not appear to me that the second gyro is intended to add reliability. Watch how the gyros move in the video: the rotors rotate in opposite directions and the frames twist in opposite directions to apply force to the vehicle chassis. That is necessary so that vehicle pitch motion is not coupled into vehicle roll motion by the gyro. So if one gyro were to fail, the vehicle would rock side-to-side every time it went over a speedbump.
- easytiger 14y ago> And what when AirBags stop working Nothing happens > anti traction in cars Nothing happens. Without Gyros this thing falls sideways
- easytiger 14y agoCare to explain the negative voting?
- jessaustin 14y agoI didn't downvote you, but it is physically impossible for spinning gyros, with their massive angular momentum, to suddenly stop without a sudden massive impulse of countervailing torque. Barring catastrophic (i.e. the driver is already dead) damage to the vehicle, there is no mechanism that can apply such torque.
- henrikgs 14y agoThe video says it has 2 where one of them is for redundancy, but still....
- JohnsonB 14y agoWhy would a gyro abruptly stop? If there's some sort of collision with enough force to crumple the gyro casing, which appears to be buried deep in the vehicle and can be made of very strong material, you have a lot bigger problems than the gyros stopping.
- anthonyb 14y agobecause physics.
- anthonyb 14y agoWatch the damn video! It has feet that pop down - is that so hard?
- nakedrobot2 14y agoI saw this vehicle at the eg conference (www.the-eg.com) in April. I recognize the marketing pitch - that it takes "a baby elephant to knock it over" - good message! I think it will take a lot for regulators approve this vehicle, because it really is something quite new, and untested in the field. It does appear to be fantastically safer than "normal" motorcycles, and I would love to try one out. What was never mentioned was how it performs on extremely slippery surfaces. This is where two-wheeled vehicles have a lot of trouble. Also, one complaint about the BBC article itself - it uses "technology from the Space Station and Hubble Telescope: gyroscopes" - Really, BBC? :-)
- merraksh 14y agoPrevious discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4037645 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4037645
- redcap 14y agoThe bearded guy raised the point of needing to trust the vehicle to not fall over, and there was a lot of talk about how it looked and what kind of cool features were included. But before I purchased it, I'd definitely want to have a test ride to see how it went, and perhaps some decent feedback from Top Gear - how does it really handle in a variety of situations?
- breakyerself 14y agoI'd go for a motor trend review. Top gear has been caught sandbagging electric vehicles in the past. I love the show for it's entertainment value, but they aren't always a neutral party.
- Shish2k 14y ago> they aren't always a neutral party. They are sometimes a neutral party? I always thought Top Gear was a car-themed sitcom...
- freehunter 14y agoI agree here. Top Gear gives entertaining reviews, and they touch on the good or bad parts of the car, but not in an incredibly well-rounded way. They have a tendency to home in on one or two positives or negatives and ride that for the laughs. I really would love to see what they say, but I wouldn't use it as my only or even my main review source. Especially considering their history of deceptive entertainment when it comes to electric cars.
- simias 14y agoI expect that even if the gyros stop while you're driving you wouldn't fall over because... well because that's how bikes work. It might change the way it handles though. So I would only be worried about it falling over while stopped, which is not as bad I guess. Here in Paris I see a lot of those motor tricycles that don't require motorbike license, so I think there's definitely a market for a not-so dangerous and simpler motorbike in congested urban areas. By the way I hate it when the hostess introduces gyros like "space age technology". Yeah, my bike has bits of steel soldered together, you know, like the International Space Station!
- bambax 14y agoIs it really called the C1? "C1" is the name of a scooter with a hard top, distributed by BMW: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_C1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_C1
- Joeboy 14y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinclair_C5 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinclair_C5
- danielparks 14y agoI mentioned this in another comment, but "C-1" is a code name. See the FAQ: http://litmotors.com/faq/ http://litmotors.com/faq/ (there's no anchor; search for "BMW").
- huhtenberg 14y agoIt's also a model in Citroën's C1, C2, C3... line-up - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_C1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_C1
- Irregardless 14y ago> Production: 2000–2003 Doesn't sound like it'll be an issue anymore.
- pbhjpbhj 14y agoFrom the video: "Imagine a touchscreen embedded in the steering-wheel" Yes, imagine all the crashes it's going to cause.
- zalew 14y agoreminds me of this http://jalopnik.com/5390061/amazon-users-hack-steering-wheel-laptop-desk-page-show-outcome-of-use http://jalopnik.com/5390061/amazon-users-hack-steering-wheel...
- pferdefleisch 14y agoI've seen very similar things for sale at gas stations on the side of the highway in Spain. For the long distance commuter.
- freehunter 14y agoHack? Really Jalopnik? You mean they uploaded pictures and reviews in exactly the way Amazon intended, albeit in a humorous fashion to make a point? People annoy me far too often.
- zalew 14y agoyeah, meanwhile in another thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4904320 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4904320
- prof_hobart 14y agoAs a motorcyclist, I'd like the tech to be put into more traditional motorcycle bodies. The idea of not being able to be knocked off, or fall over on an icy road, appeals - but the look of this really doesn't. It reminds me of the similarly named BMW C1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_C1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_C1).
- simias 14y agoI don't think they're going for the biker market. After all, it has a steering wheel, not bike handles. That alone hints that it probably drives somewhat like a car.
- prof_hobart 14y agoThe interview suggests that they are after both markets, and this is obviously a prototype vehicle - there's no reason why they couldn't produce both a car replacement and a more stable motorbike as separate vehicle.
- happywolf 14y agoA cool-looking vehicle, but wonder how much more weight it has compared to the regular motorcycles? I think embedding a cell phone at the center of steering wheel is a sure-fire way to distract driver attention and cause accidents.
- neilmiddleton 14y agoI'd like to see how this behaves with the typical things that cause a bike to crash, for instance, the front end washing out on ice, or a locked front wheel, or loss of traction on an accelerating rear wheel. Highsiding this could still happen I guess.
- danielparks 14y agoSeems like the gyroscopes would help with a bunch of those — traction issues become less about keeping the bike upright and more about controlling where the bike goes. I don't see anything about ABS in the FAQ, but that would avoid the problems of locked front or rear wheels. Also, I imagine this has only one brake control, unlike a motorcycle, so you can't lock up one wheel by stomping on your rear brake but not grabbing the front brake. I also wonder how effective the gyroscopes would be against a high-side crash. Would the having to adjust for hills limit their ability to prevent one? Having a seatbelt seems like it might help with high-sides, too.
- danielparks 14y agoThe FAQ is here: http://litmotors.com/faq/ http://litmotors.com/faq/ Notably, C-1 is a code name, not the final product name. I'm curious how the gyros interact with turning. Presumably they have a limited ability to change orientation (necessary for say hills at the very least). It sounds like the steering wheel is hooked to the front wheel mechanically (from the FAQ: ”… with mechanical backups to allow the driver to steer and stop the car even in a catastrophic failure of all systems”). Does that mean you have to countersteer like in a motorcycle? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering) I could imagine the steering wheel manipulating the gyroscopes to initiate leans rather than turning the front wheel. I'm unsure how effective that would be, especially at low speeds. EDIT: I looked at some of the videos on their website. It seems like the steering wheel does turn the front wheel, and the gyros are free to tilt to accommodate hills. The video shows them tilting toward each other on a lean — I think that means they rotate in opposite directions? Not my area of expertise.
- jentulman 14y agoOff topic rant, the BBC's Click strand drives me up the wall on occasions that I see any of it. We used to have the wonderful (if haphazard) Tomorrows World as primetime science viewing and now we're left with Click which is broadcast in a time slot for the terminally stoned and apparently produced by ex '... for dummies' editors. And don't get me started on the abysmal Gadget Show.
- shrikant 14y agoThere's a BBC radio show (which is also now available as a podcast) called The Joy of Tech, which is quite alright (and way better than Click, IMHO) - http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/jot http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/jot
- jentulman 14y agoCheers, I'll give that a listen. I ought to stray from Radio4 and 6music a little more often.
- coob 14y agoI think you're viewing Tomorrow's World via rose tinted glasses. I loved it as a kid but if you watch an old episode now you're guaranteed to cringe.
- jentulman 14y agoI'm sure I am, but unless I'm remembering it very badly they didn't have quite the same 'OMG Science!' presentation. The bit about the gyros in the Click video is awful. I was expecting her to use the word boffin at any moment.
- hnriot 14y agoI was expecting (hoping) to see a baby elephant :)
- fractallyte 14y ago
- majke 14y agoI can't get if they are really serious about mass-producing an electric motorcycle. On technical side this company looks like it's run by an individual - Daniel. Team page [1] shows 6 employees not named as "Advisors". Out of who only two are technical (Daniel, the CTO and Kevin). More worryingly Kevin's linkedin page shows he's not working at Lit Motors for last two months. Looks like on technical side Daniel is pretty much alone. It's not necessarily bad, maybe they are just starting. I'm just worried they'll disappear. Does anyone know if they are funded? [1] http://litmotors.com/lit-team/ http://litmotors.com/lit-team/
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- Narretz 14y agoAs a non-native speaker, "bike" confuses me. This is some sort of motorcycle ... what do you call a bike nowadays that this didn't confuse anyone else?
- polymatter 14y agobicycle = pedal powered bike motorcycle = bike with a motor scooter = bike with a small motor (I am UK native, but not a bike person)
- anjc 14y agoIs there potential for something like this to be safer than a car during a collision, ignoring the fact that it can stay upright? I presume that a car going 30 miles an hour is going to have more of an impact than a baby elephant pushing, so i don't like the idea of being enclosed in a soft shell which is just going to fall over and go under a car. Is it easier to fit small vehicles like this with things like roll cages, or more encompassing air bags? Or will a car always have a safety edge because of crumple zones etc?
- timthorn 14y agoAnd what happens to the gyros' energy in a crash?
- jdbernard 14y agoWow, I had not even thought of that. If the integrity of the frame is compromised during the collision that seems a very scary prospect.
- goatforce5 14y agoThe baby elephant message is cute - i'll know i'm safe if I go to a safari park. I'm much more interested in what happens if an SUV at speed hits the bike (or, I guess, an adult elephant at speed). I see more SUVs on a day-to-day basis than baby elephants.
- blacksmith_tb 14y agoWhat happens to standard, unenclosed and gyro-less motorcycle in a collision at speed with an SUV? I suppose they are introducing the possibility of being trapped/crushed instead of being thrown or run over, but my sense is the rhetoric about elephants is intended to entice non-riders who wouldn't want to try and handle a motorcycle.
- Shivetya 14y agoEnclosed two wheelers do solve the problems of, its too hot, too cold, to wet, and more. Yet the price point isn't sufficient to get me or many others out of cars let alone off of motorcycles. Twenty four thousand is definitely out there but even twelve thousand will price it beyond the means of many. Many used bikes if not cars will fall under that price and unless gas is just astronomical it becomes a bit hard to justify its purchase. Its a great idea, don't get me wrong. However compared to existing transportation options its very pricey. Safety wise, with good use of LED lighting one could make it stand out very well in traffic without blinding other drivers because its a bit diminutive for my liking.
- neilmiddleton 14y agoI wouldn't be so sure. Working in GBP that bike would cost me £7K. Say I had it three years, I'm looking at it costing £2.3K a year. Given that with my current commuter bike (a BMW R1100RT) I already have an annual cost of £1250 in fuel alone. That's before considering all the other costs you get with owning a bike. Add to this that this is considerably more comfortable, more weatherproof, and not a 10 year old like mine it seems a fair price.
- Adirael 14y agoI don't think that's a fair comparison. You're speaking about a 1100cc 90hp machine and comparing it with a small electric motor. My commuter bike is a 250cc with 28hp. It has 9 years, carbed. Inside the city (less than 100kph) it gets about 3.2L / 100km and 280km per tank. It's cheap as fuck to fix and the bike itself was like 1K (used, around 3-4K new, it's shinny).
- stephenhuey 14y agoBut after loads of early adopters start buying it, couldn't we expect the price to drop a few more thousand dollars?
- Adirael 14y ago
- bmuon 14y agoAlternatively, there are some enclosed electric tricycles going around that may have some success like the Arcimoto: http://www.arcimoto.com/ http://www.arcimoto.com/
- ericssmith 14y agoA motorcycle turns by 'falling over'. For me, that and the acceleration are the main attractions. Can't imagine this will get many motorcyclists to convert.
- Adirael 14y agoCounter steering. This thing turns like a motorcycle, it's the only way (AFAIK) to turn a two lined wheeled vehicle at speed. It's not a Can-Am.
- barrkel 14y agoIt has a steering wheel. Can you imagine counter-steering with a steering wheel? Swerving to avoid something on the road? Gyros would greatly reduce agility if they were not deeply tied into the steering, so I wonder if the steering isn't a direct mechanical linkage.
- Adirael 14y agoNot sure, maybe. I think they'll be trying to target people who likes MCs but are too afraid to hop in one, so it would make sense to have the counter steering mechanically done instead of giving you the full control... I also couldn't find anything about speed and power.
- a-priori 14y agoI presume that it's actually a fly-by-wire (drive-by-wire?) system where the steering wheel directs a controller to 'do the right thing' with a combination of steering and gyro changes, rather than directly controlling the front wheel as in a normal motorcycle.
- Too 14y agoThis is my biggest question also. How does the thing turn at high velocity with those gyros. Either the gyros has to make the bike fall before the front wheel actually starts turning or you have to manually countersteer which the gyros will try to counter. I find it hard to believe that the gyros will handle the "centrifugal" forces by themselves if you do a sharp turn in high speed. Did nobody notice that they never show anyone driving the thing more than 5 meters at a time and only straight forward? And when the reporter is "trying" to knock the thing over she hardly touches it. I would like to see a video with some rougher scenarios before i believe in this thing.
- nemoniac 14y agoI use these Smart cars all the time https://www.car2go.com/ https://www.car2go.com/ If they made C1s available too, I'd certainly use them.
- srlake 14y agoI hope Tesla buys them. Model-B.
- Irregardless 14y ago> One of the most common accidents for motorcyclists is falling while turning a corner. Yes, due to loss of traction or excessive cornering speed. But those are both issues inherent to two-wheeled vehicles, and adding gyroscopes won't solve either. So you gain the ability to ride in the rain without wearing rain gear, but you give up cargo space and visibility. Not to mention the fact that your head will now be in the perfect position to get rammed by a bumper, and the lower profile increases the likelihood that other drivers won't see you. It's a nifty trick, but I don't see who this would appeal to. Most motorcyclists already have rain-proof gear, and non-motorcyclists will still think it's a death trap.
- deelowe 14y agoMy thoughts exactly. Staying balanced on a motorcycle isn't even on the list of things that are dangerous about riding one. Once you get over about 10 mph, it's impossible to fall off one.
- greghinch 14y agoThat's not exactly true, learning to corner properly on a motorcycle is probably the toughest skill to master. That being said, if you ride conservatively you can do just fine with only a little practice. But yea, the most dangerous part of riding a bike, once you have even just a few months experience, is the other cars on the road (most of whom don't see you).
- deelowe 14y agoYeah. My point is that balance isn't an issue on a bike. The rider might not be able to hold on, but a bike is perfectly capable of keeping itself upright. Sometimes even to the detriment of the rider. Low speed accidents where a rider drops a bike isn't enough of a concern to design something like this, so I'm ignoring those for the above statement.
- Nick_C 14y agoYeah. I've dropped my bikes three times over 20 years -- every time was at less than 10mph.
- duedl0r 14y agoduh.. a guy patented this more than hundred years ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyro_monorail http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyro_monorail tsss...
- mikek 14y agoNote that he says 'baby elephant' instead of 'car'. Edit: a baby elephant weighs 3 tons, whereas an average car weights 2 tons. Hmm.
- GigabyteCoin 14y agoCars can carry a lot more inertia than a baby elephant.
- rmason 14y agoDoes anyone know if the Lit will qualify for the US governments $7500 electric car subsidy?
- dbz 14y agoSo, you could add gyroscopes to a motorcycle and there would be no difference.
- nosse 14y ago"I know what your thinking: a motorcycle that can't be tipped? How is that..." fun? Motorcycles are fun, is this?
- chimere 14y agoThis actually uses control moment gyroscopes [1] in a scissored-pair configuration, the subject of my undergrad thesis. These differ from standard gyroscopes in that they are gimballed to produce a reaction torque. They are actually most commonly used on large spacecraft for attitude control, so the comment about "technology from the ISS" is quite relevant. However, the statement that there are "two for redundancy" is dubious. The torque from a control moment gyro is not produced in a constant vector - the torque vector rotates with the gyroscope as it is gimballed. Thus, if there was only one gyro, some component of its output torque would be aligned with the yaw axis, which would create some rather unpleasant and dangerous effects. The scissored-pair configuration is required to cancel out the yaw torque. [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_moment_gyroscope http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_moment_gyroscope
- advisedwang 14y agoIt sounds quite noisy inside from the video