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How would that global app ban help? You do want the application to steal focus when necessary. It's just in this case the user has made the decision to not wait

by eviks 3mo ago

How would that global app ban help? You do want the application to steal focus when necessary. It's just in this case the user has made the decision to not wait for startup and switch to another app. Aggravating step - he was typing. Is this workflow part of the Kwin settings? It's not interrupting typing part of the settings?

frameset 3mo ago
> How would that global app ban help? You do want the application to steal focus when necessary Maybe you do. I don't. With this setting we can both be hapopy.
- eviks 3mo ago
  We can't both be happy because the setting does nothing for me.
  - frameset 3mo ago
    What? You can set it to let apps steal the focus you want. I can set it to not allow any apps to steal focus. How are we not both satisfied?
    - eviks 3mo ago
      That! I don't want apps to steal focus in some conditions. I can't set it like that because the settings are too primitive. Why would I be satisfied with a primitive binary toggle when I want workflow-dependent conditions?
      - frameset 3mo ago
        Did you read the documentation I linked? There's also high/medium/low settings that use XDG signals to determine if focus should change.
        eviks 3mo ago
        Did you read my comment? Which of these 3 settings allows focus steal, but not during typing?
        etdznots 3mo ago
        Turing complete focus filter policy language and evaluator
        eviks 3mo ago
        I'd settle for a few "if/else"s
    - waisbrot 3mo ago
      I want the setting to steal YOUR focus
jagged-chisel 3mo ago
Any app should be ready to accept focus. It should never steal focus. When I start an app, and wait for it to launch, I am attempting to give it focus. I can withdraw that intent at any time by doing something else (e.g. switching apps) and the launching app should finish launching and wait in the background.
- eviks 3mo ago
  Your specific example is just repeating what I've said, but your generic point is wrong: let's say you have an important task in an app with unavoidable interruptions, during which you switch to your browser to mindlessly scroll. You most likely want to return to the main task as soon as possible because that scrolling is just a time filler because you can't do anything productive. So you don't need any notification and extra action, just switch back asap and continue work with as little interruption as possible. But even in the specific example that depends entirely on what you're switching from and to and for what reason. If it's for something quick non-interactive (I don't know, switch to a file browser to check the file name or something), then yes, you'd prefer to seamlessly be switched back to the main app to do the thing you launched it for. But if it's not an important app, then yeah, you just want it to be ready for you and switch to it whenever you decide to avoid the launching delay later
  - jamesnorden 3mo ago
    He's saying the setting exists and does what he wants, how can you say his example is "wrong"?
  - jagged-chisel 3mo ago
    Nope. I never want my front task just interrupted like that. Let's take your "check the filename or something" example, and while you're there, you realize you also need a new directory, so while you're typing the name, the other task steals focus and the character you're typing cancels the task - and now you have to start it again. This exact situation has happened so many times, and it's why focus stealing focus of any kind is a problem. I don't care how important the app's developers think their app is. It's my computer, it's my decision how "important" something is.
ghusto 3mo ago
I can not think of a single scenario where stealing focus would be desirable. Also, the presumption that I'm going to wait around for 5+ seconds whilst an opens is unrealistic.
- chongli 3mo ago
  That’s easy: a proper emergency. Let’s say you’re controlling a piece of machinery with an app in the background and the machine starts on fire. Wouldn’t it make sense for the app to steal focus so it can show you some alarms (in addition to audible alarms which you may not hear because they’re in another room).
  - viceconsole 3mo ago
    Having actually worked with industrial machinery, the proper UI for this is 1) unimpeded view of machine and 2) big red physical emergency stop button. If you're relying on focus stealing or popups or notifications to tell you when your equipment is on fire, you're doing it wrong.
    - eviks 3mo ago
      Are you not aware that remote monitoring software exists? Your option is also not mutually exclusive, you can have your red buttons for local workers. Is redundancy not "proper UI"? (I'm amazed how people stubbornly refuse to imagine the most trivial of use cases in this discussion.)
MiddleEndian 3mo ago
>You do want the application to steal focus when necessary No I don't. We recently switched to Zoom at work. Meeting notifications steal my focus (Windows 11 device) and it's fucking terrible. Nothing should ever steal focus.

by eviks 3mo ago

frameset 3mo ago

> How would that global app ban help? You do want the application to steal focus when necessary Maybe you do. I don't. With this setting we can both be hapopy.

eviks 3mo ago
We can't both be happy because the setting does nothing for me.
- frameset 3mo ago
  What? You can set it to let apps steal the focus you want. I can set it to not allow any apps to steal focus. How are we not both satisfied?
  - eviks 3mo ago
    That! I don't want apps to steal focus in some conditions. I can't set it like that because the settings are too primitive. Why would I be satisfied with a primitive binary toggle when I want workflow-dependent conditions?
    - frameset 3mo ago
      Did you read the documentation I linked? There's also high/medium/low settings that use XDG signals to determine if focus should change.
      - eviks 3mo ago
        Did you read my comment? Which of these 3 settings allows focus steal, but not during typing?
        etdznots 3mo ago
        Turing complete focus filter policy language and evaluator
        eviks 3mo ago
        I'd settle for a few "if/else"s
  - waisbrot 3mo ago
    I want the setting to steal YOUR focus

jagged-chisel 3mo ago

Any app should be ready to accept focus. It should never steal focus. When I start an app, and wait for it to launch, I am attempting to give it focus. I can withdraw that intent at any time by doing something else (e.g. switching apps) and the launching app should finish launching and wait in the background.

eviks 3mo ago
Your specific example is just repeating what I've said, but your generic point is wrong: let's say you have an important task in an app with unavoidable interruptions, during which you switch to your browser to mindlessly scroll. You most likely want to return to the main task as soon as possible because that scrolling is just a time filler because you can't do anything productive. So you don't need any notification and extra action, just switch back asap and continue work with as little interruption as possible. But even in the specific example that depends entirely on what you're switching from and to and for what reason. If it's for something quick non-interactive (I don't know, switch to a file browser to check the file name or something), then yes, you'd prefer to seamlessly be switched back to the main app to do the thing you launched it for. But if it's not an important app, then yeah, you just want it to be ready for you and switch to it whenever you decide to avoid the launching delay later
- jamesnorden 3mo ago
  He's saying the setting exists and does what he wants, how can you say his example is "wrong"?
- jagged-chisel 3mo ago
  Nope. I never want my front task just interrupted like that. Let's take your "check the filename or something" example, and while you're there, you realize you also need a new directory, so while you're typing the name, the other task steals focus and the character you're typing cancels the task - and now you have to start it again. This exact situation has happened so many times, and it's why focus stealing focus of any kind is a problem. I don't care how important the app's developers think their app is. It's my computer, it's my decision how "important" something is.

ghusto 3mo ago

I can not think of a single scenario where stealing focus would be desirable. Also, the presumption that I'm going to wait around for 5+ seconds whilst an opens is unrealistic.

chongli 3mo ago
That’s easy: a proper emergency. Let’s say you’re controlling a piece of machinery with an app in the background and the machine starts on fire. Wouldn’t it make sense for the app to steal focus so it can show you some alarms (in addition to audible alarms which you may not hear because they’re in another room).
- viceconsole 3mo ago
  Having actually worked with industrial machinery, the proper UI for this is 1) unimpeded view of machine and 2) big red physical emergency stop button. If you're relying on focus stealing or popups or notifications to tell you when your equipment is on fire, you're doing it wrong.
  - eviks 3mo ago
    Are you not aware that remote monitoring software exists? Your option is also not mutually exclusive, you can have your red buttons for local workers. Is redundancy not "proper UI"? (I'm amazed how people stubbornly refuse to imagine the most trivial of use cases in this discussion.)

MiddleEndian 3mo ago

>You do want the application to steal focus when necessary No I don't. We recently switched to Zoom at work. Meeting notifications steal my focus (Windows 11 device) and it's fucking terrible. Nothing should ever steal focus.