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Ukraine's innovation and perseverance under extreme duress is inspirational. I hope they continue their path towards a stronger, more democratic and more corrup

Ukraine's innovation and perseverance under extreme duress is inspirational. I hope they continue their path towards a stronger, more democratic and more corruption-free nation who can stand tall and resist tyrannical States like Russia

ur-whale 2mo ago
> and more corruption-free nation I'm really rooting for Ukraine here, and it looks like they are well on their way to succeeding pushing Russia out. But the corruption issue ... for this particular problem, old habits unfortunately die really, really hard. When corruption has become interwoven into the fabric of a society the way it has in Ukraine, and for such a long time, rooting it out will be very, very hard. This kind of stuff typically requires two generations to die out and a super strong, long-term political will. I hope they'll pull it off, but it won't be easy.
- txzl 2mo ago
  Any examples of nations that succeeded in this regard? (currently corruption-free states)
  - mschuster91 2mo ago
    Former Yugoslavia. From what I hear from my parents' generation, you couldn't do anything or it would take a serious amount of time without bakshish, today it' pretty frowned upon, at least in the EU countries. Serbia and Bosnia are a different game...
  - jwr 2mo ago
    Poland, while not entirely corruption-free, has managed very well after the transition from Russian-dominated communism. For reasons I still do not understand, organized crime was rooted out in the 90s, and gambling restricted to almost nothingness (gambling is always tied to organized crime). Not perfect, but doing pretty well, and the effects can be seen.
    - Tade0 2mo ago
      Part of the reason was putting into law the option to become a crown witness, famously used by Jarosław "Masa" Sokołowski. In my view what really did them in was Poland's EU accession later on. It gave young men alternatives to joining organised crime as foot soldiers. Of course many criminals emigrated as well, but on foreign turf they weren't nearly as successful. Right now it's demographics, with the average age of a felon going from ~20 to ~34 between 2000 and now. These people focus on e-commerce scams.
  - distances 2mo ago
    All countries distancing themselves from Russia and aligning with the EU have managed to reduce corruption. It's a winning formula, so will very likely happen with Ukraine too after the corrupting Russian influence is eradicated.
    - spwa4 2mo ago
      As someone whose worked as a consultant for the EU for years, eventually realizing who the sales people of my company were (... related to), I wonder what you mean. I really wonder what you mean. Government spending is how the Brussels economy works (there's technically 11 and in practice about 7 different governments, all of whom have similar needs), and you get government spending assigned to you by "knowing" government deciders ...
      - distances 2mo ago
        > I wonder what you mean I thought I was clear? I mean the western corruption isn't in any shape or form comparable to Russian corruption, and how it pervaded all the Eastern Bloc. It does take long time to root it out, as it affects and degrades the whole society. You really, really can't compare it to what we have in the west, and everybody is better off when they get to escape it.
        owebmaster 2mo ago
        > I mean the western corruption isn't in any shape or form comparable to Russian corruption Is this good or bad? Is Russian corruption much worse or much better in the Epstein scale of corruption?
        bulbar 2mo ago
        Yes, Russian corruption is much worse. You only know about Epstein because there wasn't enough corruption to hide it indefinitely. Dozens of people where murdered by Putin for merely speaking out against him. Corruption is also much more normalized in Russia. Bureaucrats will casually take money to work your case faster (or at all). I know that from old friends as they had to bribe people to get their case processed a few years ago (before Russia started the war).
  - ur-whale 2mo ago
    > Any examples of nations that succeeded in this regard? (currently corruption-free states) It's all a matter of degrees of course, but Singapore and Switzerland spring to mind. I'm not claiming either is corruption-free (there is no such thing unfortunately), but in terms of comparables, it's night and day between these nations and many other countries.
- sam_lowry_ 2mo ago
  > corruption has become interwoven into the fabric of a society It is part of every society, but Ukrainians and the west perceive it as a problem for Ukraine while, say, Danes do not, although Denmark [1] is utterly corrupt in its own ways. Corruption is problem only for states that underwent recent political transitions and where class struggle has not been a thing for various reasons. Ukraine improves quickly, but signs of improvement are not in the corruption perception indices but in people manifesting their opinions on the streets, like in the recent ousting, then re-hiring of the Defense Minister. [1] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt32482555/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt32482555/
  - logicchains 2mo ago
    Corruption in Ukraine is democratized; corruption in the EU is only for the rich and powerful.
    - sam_lowry_ 2mo ago
      This is another way to put it, yes.
      - deleted 2mo ago
        [deleted]
- 21asdffdsa12 2mo ago
  When socialism gets a chance to push its culture into a society, it really all goes down the drain hard and fast, they are great at using natural circumstances to push a revolution, but what they do with the conquered societies is beyond horrifying. The Inter-generational damage in corruption and zero-sum distrust is staggering.

ur-whale 2mo ago

> and more corruption-free nation I'm really rooting for Ukraine here, and it looks like they are well on their way to succeeding pushing Russia out. But the corruption issue ... for this particular problem, old habits unfortunately die really, really hard. When corruption has become interwoven into the fabric of a society the way it has in Ukraine, and for such a long time, rooting it out will be very, very hard. This kind of stuff typically requires two generations to die out and a super strong, long-term political will. I hope they'll pull it off, but it won't be easy.

txzl 2mo ago
Any examples of nations that succeeded in this regard? (currently corruption-free states)
- mschuster91 2mo ago
  Former Yugoslavia. From what I hear from my parents' generation, you couldn't do anything or it would take a serious amount of time without bakshish, today it' pretty frowned upon, at least in the EU countries. Serbia and Bosnia are a different game...
- jwr 2mo ago
  Poland, while not entirely corruption-free, has managed very well after the transition from Russian-dominated communism. For reasons I still do not understand, organized crime was rooted out in the 90s, and gambling restricted to almost nothingness (gambling is always tied to organized crime). Not perfect, but doing pretty well, and the effects can be seen.
  - Tade0 2mo ago
    Part of the reason was putting into law the option to become a crown witness, famously used by Jarosław "Masa" Sokołowski. In my view what really did them in was Poland's EU accession later on. It gave young men alternatives to joining organised crime as foot soldiers. Of course many criminals emigrated as well, but on foreign turf they weren't nearly as successful. Right now it's demographics, with the average age of a felon going from ~20 to ~34 between 2000 and now. These people focus on e-commerce scams.
- distances 2mo ago
  All countries distancing themselves from Russia and aligning with the EU have managed to reduce corruption. It's a winning formula, so will very likely happen with Ukraine too after the corrupting Russian influence is eradicated.
  - spwa4 2mo ago
    As someone whose worked as a consultant for the EU for years, eventually realizing who the sales people of my company were (... related to), I wonder what you mean. I really wonder what you mean. Government spending is how the Brussels economy works (there's technically 11 and in practice about 7 different governments, all of whom have similar needs), and you get government spending assigned to you by "knowing" government deciders ...
    - distances 2mo ago
      > I wonder what you mean I thought I was clear? I mean the western corruption isn't in any shape or form comparable to Russian corruption, and how it pervaded all the Eastern Bloc. It does take long time to root it out, as it affects and degrades the whole society. You really, really can't compare it to what we have in the west, and everybody is better off when they get to escape it.
      - owebmaster 2mo ago
        > I mean the western corruption isn't in any shape or form comparable to Russian corruption Is this good or bad? Is Russian corruption much worse or much better in the Epstein scale of corruption?
        bulbar 2mo ago
        Yes, Russian corruption is much worse. You only know about Epstein because there wasn't enough corruption to hide it indefinitely. Dozens of people where murdered by Putin for merely speaking out against him. Corruption is also much more normalized in Russia. Bureaucrats will casually take money to work your case faster (or at all). I know that from old friends as they had to bribe people to get their case processed a few years ago (before Russia started the war).
- ur-whale 2mo ago
  > Any examples of nations that succeeded in this regard? (currently corruption-free states) It's all a matter of degrees of course, but Singapore and Switzerland spring to mind. I'm not claiming either is corruption-free (there is no such thing unfortunately), but in terms of comparables, it's night and day between these nations and many other countries.
sam_lowry_ 2mo ago
> corruption has become interwoven into the fabric of a society It is part of every society, but Ukrainians and the west perceive it as a problem for Ukraine while, say, Danes do not, although Denmark [1] is utterly corrupt in its own ways. Corruption is problem only for states that underwent recent political transitions and where class struggle has not been a thing for various reasons. Ukraine improves quickly, but signs of improvement are not in the corruption perception indices but in people manifesting their opinions on the streets, like in the recent ousting, then re-hiring of the Defense Minister. [1] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt32482555/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt32482555/
- logicchains 2mo ago
  Corruption in Ukraine is democratized; corruption in the EU is only for the rich and powerful.
  - sam_lowry_ 2mo ago
    This is another way to put it, yes.
    - deleted 2mo ago
      [deleted]
21asdffdsa12 2mo ago
When socialism gets a chance to push its culture into a society, it really all goes down the drain hard and fast, they are great at using natural circumstances to push a revolution, but what they do with the conquered societies is beyond horrifying. The Inter-generational damage in corruption and zero-sum distrust is staggering.