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I agree that I don’t want a data center in my backyard either. What’s missing from this strange conversation is discussion about how many data center proposals

I agree that I don’t want a data center in my backyard either. What’s missing from this strange conversation is discussion about how many data center proposals are near residential areas. I tried to look for one in my state and a few surrounding areas and couldn’t find any. There was an amusing story about how data center protestors had to organize expensive bus trips to get the protesters out to the data center site because it was so remote. There was another story about a small town without any major electricity or communication infrastructure coming together to impose a moratorium on data center construction. There were no plans to build data centers in their small town and no reason to consider it at all, but they felt so threatened that they needed to convene and put on a big show about banning it. The social phenomenon of the data center construction protest movement is really fascinating. My assumption is that it will run its course and then be mostly dropped when the next current thing comes along. There are some actual concerns about using natural gas instead of trying to utilize the optimal power sources or locations, but they’re mostly overshadowed by bogeyman complaints like thinking that a data center is going to end up in your backyard or water consumption that is negligible compared to golf courses and swimming pools.

deleted 3mo ago
[deleted]
yoyohello13 3mo ago
My take is that people feel powerless to really do anything against these massive tech companies. This is the only tangible way they can fight back.
- ryandrake 3mo ago
  Yea, there's probably not one single issue that people are fed up with, but datacenters have become lightning rods that represent big tech's disproportionate power over us, job-displacing AI, and are a visible example of how municipalities that we elect--serve and prioritize companies from out of town over their voters.
- Aurornis 3mo ago
  I might believe that if the protests weren't being organized on Facebook and then posted to YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok. It's more like garbage dumps. People don't want to moderate their production of garbage, they just don't want any consequences of it to be too close to their house.
  - vitally3643 3mo ago
    "I see you're complaining about society and yet you participate in society! Very interesting! I am very smart." This is not a good or reasoned take. People organize where the other people are because that's how you get the most people. It is nor hypocrisy to use Facebook as a platform to organize protests against other tech companies. Just as it is not hypocrisy to criticize the society you live within. This is a very stupid observation made by people who can't be bothered to consider the realities of life away from their keyboard.
    - narcraft 3mo ago
      It is a good or reasoned take (but perhaps not both!). There is some sliver of hypocrisy in condemning tech companies wholesale while enjoying their products. But just because something is hypocritical, it doesn't invalidate all related criticisms. If you don't like the negative byproducts of a good or service, that's a perfectly valid gripe. But those byproducts are a necessary consequence of the status quo. In order to eliminate or mitigate the undesired consequences, some change would need to occur in the real world that would require a hitherto unforeseen innovation or it would otherwise increase the cost of providing the good or service, potentially so much so that prices would increase to undesirable levels, or it would become economically unviable to produce the good or service entirely. So without more specific criticism, and combined with polemic rhetoric, it's reasonable to assume that some are arguing that the world would be better off without AI datacenters and the models they support entirely. And if those same persons enjoy those same services, it's reasonable to sense some tension there. Maybe they haven't thought the whole thing through. I don't think it's a stupid observation.
      - HWR_14 3mo ago
- epolanski 3mo ago
  I wouldn't want a GPU datacenter close to my house either. They should buy land in middle of nowhere, many miles from any closest town, no less than 5. And they should build and provide their own electricity. I don't see any other solution to make everyone coexist in peace. Imagine it was your house a mile from such a monster. Eyesore, noisy.
datakan 3mo ago
> There were no plans to build data centers in their small town and no reason to consider it at all You have to be fair on this though. The time to ban something is before they start talking about doing it, not after. Being ahead of the game is never a bad thing, especially when small towns are so easily exploited due to income and infrastructure. They just can't afford long legal battles.
- xoa 3mo ago
  I'd like to add some extra strong emphasis/support to your post: >Being ahead of the game is never a bad thing, especially when small towns are so easily exploited due to income and infrastructure. They just can't afford long legal battles. It's not merely "never a bad thing", for certain tools like zoning it is, at least in the jurisdictions I know of, required to be well ahead and consistently enforced. It's not something towns are allowed to do retroactively, if you have no proper legal town plan/zoning setup in place as well as various ordinances like noise then by default the only controls are the relatively weak state ones. There are many things a government is allowed to do if it's part of an overall plan that applies to all equally, but not if it's "we just don't like those guys specifically", and the best way to demonstrate that is to be making no special moves around a given arrival at all but rather to have it all setup. Of course, there are as you suggest lots of other good reasons to be ahead too. It's a lot easier to consider things thoroughly and get community agreement when there isn't massive time pressure or lobbying going on and emotions aren't running high. It's easier to get some expert consultation at reasonable prices (in some cases there may even be community members with the skills and willingness to volunteer if it's not a time crush), to enact longer term infrastructure plans, to get any state approval if needed, etc etc. But there are legally serious hard lines as well and if towns are caught napping they may just not be able to use them at all.
- Aurornis 3mo ago
  The interesting thing about the anecdote wasn't the timing. It was that there was no reason to build a data center there but they felt compelled to make it their top priority. > especially when small towns are so easily exploited due to income and infrastructure. Small, remote towns without electricity or data connections are not easily exploited for data centers.
dv_dt 3mo ago
Does a data center need to be an immediate neighbor to raise electricity rates or consume water capacity?
- dylan604 3mo ago
  This is such an obvious concern that it's hard to understand how the GP didn't think of it as well. Clearly, people don't always consider all the things and get focused in so they can't see the forest for the trees.
  - neutronicus 3mo ago
    It also doesn't necessarily matter if the data centers actually raise electricity rates. Regardless of whether or not they do, you can block their construction and try to horse-trade it for relief on energy prices.
    - cucumber3732842 3mo ago
      >It also doesn't necessarily matter if the data centers actually raise electricity rates. >Regardless of whether or not they do, you can block their construction and try to horse-trade it for relief on energy prices. So in other words burn the credibility and reputation of whatever you're using for that purpose so you can pull a quick "fuck you got mine" to the tune of several cents per kwh off your bill. That sort of policy making is not sustainable and is exactly the sort of selfish shortsighted thinking that birthed the current political climate. Edit: At leas you're honest about it. The usual peddlers of such stuff are in denial about what they're doing so they can't be made to understand the tradeoffs.
      - dylan604 3mo ago
        As I see it, the AI companies are the ones that started the "fuck you got mine" defense. Look at how they obtained their data to train their models. Look at how they've gone about building their data centers. It's yet another example of how tech companies hurry up to get established with no regards for anything other than getting to a point of being too big to stop.
rsoto2 3mo ago
[flagged]
- Windchaser 3mo ago
  Hacker News guidelines: "Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3.""
  - rsoto2 3mo ago
    Where's the guidelines about misinforming people which has actual societal implications? Where are the guidelines for openly promoting products that harm people's mental and social health?
    - Windchaser 3mo ago
      You can view the guidelines here, at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html I don't think you need to attack someone personally, even if you believe they are promoting products that harm people's mental and social health. For most of us following along, it will be enough if you dismantle their arguments. What good does it do for you to harangue them? I think this guideline: "Assume good faith", applies not just to the people we disagree with, but also the other readers -- meaning, that you can trust that other readers are interested in learning and seeing things correctly.
      - Barbing 3mo ago
        Love your last point!
      - rsoto2 3mo ago
        It does zero good "for me" but hopefully someone thinks twice the next time before expressing such a dumb incorrect opinion. Not sure why adults are such precious little creatures that can't deal with a bit of criticism. If being correct was a virtue instead of being nice we wouldn't be backsliding into a world of misinformation in which science is being dismantled and people are lynched on the streets while billionaire corporations use dumb people free propaganda spreaders.
watwut 3mo ago
> There was an amusing story about how data center protestors had to organize expensive bus trips to get the protesters out to the data center site because it was so remote. How did they get in?
tsunamifury 3mo ago
If you look at Elk Grove Village, Illinois as their budget there after declaring they would become the AI Datacenter Capital of the World -- there is an obvious answer: Suburbs cannot continue to pay for their infrastructure without drastically increasing taxes or finding new sources of income.
alistairSH 3mo ago
And on the flip side, I live in Fairfax County, VA and there are data centers EVERYWHERE. Especially if I cross into Ashburn (home of AOL and stuff) - literally mixed in with large townhome developments. And the current plan - building a data center in Canaan Valley - is a whopper... 785 MW natural gas power plant on site with diesel generator backups (solely for the data center, not sold back to grid), 500+ acres of land, 2 million sqft initial building space, air quality impact assessment by the state is heavily redacted, $4 billion price tag. All right next to one of DC's most popular outdoor/skiing recreation areas. The DC would loom over the two towns that support the entire region.
- cucumber3732842 3mo ago
  >not sold back to grid) They'd probably love to sell spare capacity back to the grid but the way interconnection is handled they'd likely be on the hook for a bunch of other upgrades to facilitate that hence why they're not. You can't "just" add generation to the capacity to the grid without $5-15mil (could be way more but that'll usually torpedo a project) of cost.
SoftTalker 3mo ago
It's easy for politicians to support a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Nobody will really oppose it, and it's a safe way to appear to be "fighting for the community."
dec0dedab0de 3mo ago
Most of it is anti-AI sentiment, there are already a ton of people who have lost jobs, or clients to AI. What bothers me is clearing forests, sometimes even protected forests with the idea that they'll ask for forgiveness instead of permission.
- judemelancon 3mo ago
  I don't think they have an interest in forgiveness. I'm not sure it's a concept in their worldview.
neutronicus 3mo ago
Data centers are conflated with rising energy costs. It's partly about people's nominal objections, but mostly an attempt to hold them hostage to extract some energy bill subsidies (and general cost of living relief).
jancsika 3mo ago
> What’s missing from this strange conversation is discussion about how many data center proposals are near residential areas. What's strange is that you didn't once mention the layperson's fear of data center projects in their county/state potentially raising the cost of consumer electricity. I've never heard a layperson mention data centers without mentioning that fear. Have you really heard zero occurrences of that fear in your view-from-Mars survey of this issue?
BeetleB 3mo ago
I can't speak for elsewhere, but a town near me has a few data centers, and the anti-datacenter sentiment precedes their use for LLMs. They simply take a lot of space, and the city gave sweet tax deals, and they employ almost no one. The locals aren't happy with that type of land use.

deleted 3mo ago

[deleted]

yoyohello13 3mo ago

My take is that people feel powerless to really do anything against these massive tech companies. This is the only tangible way they can fight back.

ryandrake 3mo ago
Yea, there's probably not one single issue that people are fed up with, but datacenters have become lightning rods that represent big tech's disproportionate power over us, job-displacing AI, and are a visible example of how municipalities that we elect--serve and prioritize companies from out of town over their voters.
Aurornis 3mo ago
I might believe that if the protests weren't being organized on Facebook and then posted to YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok. It's more like garbage dumps. People don't want to moderate their production of garbage, they just don't want any consequences of it to be too close to their house.
- vitally3643 3mo ago
  "I see you're complaining about society and yet you participate in society! Very interesting! I am very smart." This is not a good or reasoned take. People organize where the other people are because that's how you get the most people. It is nor hypocrisy to use Facebook as a platform to organize protests against other tech companies. Just as it is not hypocrisy to criticize the society you live within. This is a very stupid observation made by people who can't be bothered to consider the realities of life away from their keyboard.
  - narcraft 3mo ago
    It is a good or reasoned take (but perhaps not both!). There is some sliver of hypocrisy in condemning tech companies wholesale while enjoying their products. But just because something is hypocritical, it doesn't invalidate all related criticisms. If you don't like the negative byproducts of a good or service, that's a perfectly valid gripe. But those byproducts are a necessary consequence of the status quo. In order to eliminate or mitigate the undesired consequences, some change would need to occur in the real world that would require a hitherto unforeseen innovation or it would otherwise increase the cost of providing the good or service, potentially so much so that prices would increase to undesirable levels, or it would become economically unviable to produce the good or service entirely. So without more specific criticism, and combined with polemic rhetoric, it's reasonable to assume that some are arguing that the world would be better off without AI datacenters and the models they support entirely. And if those same persons enjoy those same services, it's reasonable to sense some tension there. Maybe they haven't thought the whole thing through. I don't think it's a stupid observation.
    - HWR_14 3mo ago
epolanski 3mo ago
I wouldn't want a GPU datacenter close to my house either. They should buy land in middle of nowhere, many miles from any closest town, no less than 5. And they should build and provide their own electricity. I don't see any other solution to make everyone coexist in peace. Imagine it was your house a mile from such a monster. Eyesore, noisy.

datakan 3mo ago

> There were no plans to build data centers in their small town and no reason to consider it at all You have to be fair on this though. The time to ban something is before they start talking about doing it, not after. Being ahead of the game is never a bad thing, especially when small towns are so easily exploited due to income and infrastructure. They just can't afford long legal battles.

xoa 3mo ago
I'd like to add some extra strong emphasis/support to your post: >Being ahead of the game is never a bad thing, especially when small towns are so easily exploited due to income and infrastructure. They just can't afford long legal battles. It's not merely "never a bad thing", for certain tools like zoning it is, at least in the jurisdictions I know of, required to be well ahead and consistently enforced. It's not something towns are allowed to do retroactively, if you have no proper legal town plan/zoning setup in place as well as various ordinances like noise then by default the only controls are the relatively weak state ones. There are many things a government is allowed to do if it's part of an overall plan that applies to all equally, but not if it's "we just don't like those guys specifically", and the best way to demonstrate that is to be making no special moves around a given arrival at all but rather to have it all setup. Of course, there are as you suggest lots of other good reasons to be ahead too. It's a lot easier to consider things thoroughly and get community agreement when there isn't massive time pressure or lobbying going on and emotions aren't running high. It's easier to get some expert consultation at reasonable prices (in some cases there may even be community members with the skills and willingness to volunteer if it's not a time crush), to enact longer term infrastructure plans, to get any state approval if needed, etc etc. But there are legally serious hard lines as well and if towns are caught napping they may just not be able to use them at all.
Aurornis 3mo ago
The interesting thing about the anecdote wasn't the timing. It was that there was no reason to build a data center there but they felt compelled to make it their top priority. > especially when small towns are so easily exploited due to income and infrastructure. Small, remote towns without electricity or data connections are not easily exploited for data centers.

dv_dt 3mo ago

Does a data center need to be an immediate neighbor to raise electricity rates or consume water capacity?

dylan604 3mo ago
This is such an obvious concern that it's hard to understand how the GP didn't think of it as well. Clearly, people don't always consider all the things and get focused in so they can't see the forest for the trees.
- neutronicus 3mo ago
  It also doesn't necessarily matter if the data centers actually raise electricity rates. Regardless of whether or not they do, you can block their construction and try to horse-trade it for relief on energy prices.
  - cucumber3732842 3mo ago
    >It also doesn't necessarily matter if the data centers actually raise electricity rates. >Regardless of whether or not they do, you can block their construction and try to horse-trade it for relief on energy prices. So in other words burn the credibility and reputation of whatever you're using for that purpose so you can pull a quick "fuck you got mine" to the tune of several cents per kwh off your bill. That sort of policy making is not sustainable and is exactly the sort of selfish shortsighted thinking that birthed the current political climate. Edit: At leas you're honest about it. The usual peddlers of such stuff are in denial about what they're doing so they can't be made to understand the tradeoffs.
    - dylan604 3mo ago
      As I see it, the AI companies are the ones that started the "fuck you got mine" defense. Look at how they obtained their data to train their models. Look at how they've gone about building their data centers. It's yet another example of how tech companies hurry up to get established with no regards for anything other than getting to a point of being too big to stop.

rsoto2 3mo ago

[flagged]

Windchaser 3mo ago
Hacker News guidelines: "Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3.""
- rsoto2 3mo ago
  Where's the guidelines about misinforming people which has actual societal implications? Where are the guidelines for openly promoting products that harm people's mental and social health?
  - Windchaser 3mo ago
    You can view the guidelines here, at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html I don't think you need to attack someone personally, even if you believe they are promoting products that harm people's mental and social health. For most of us following along, it will be enough if you dismantle their arguments. What good does it do for you to harangue them? I think this guideline: "Assume good faith", applies not just to the people we disagree with, but also the other readers -- meaning, that you can trust that other readers are interested in learning and seeing things correctly.
    - Barbing 3mo ago
      Love your last point!
    - rsoto2 3mo ago
      It does zero good "for me" but hopefully someone thinks twice the next time before expressing such a dumb incorrect opinion. Not sure why adults are such precious little creatures that can't deal with a bit of criticism. If being correct was a virtue instead of being nice we wouldn't be backsliding into a world of misinformation in which science is being dismantled and people are lynched on the streets while billionaire corporations use dumb people free propaganda spreaders.

watwut 3mo ago

> There was an amusing story about how data center protestors had to organize expensive bus trips to get the protesters out to the data center site because it was so remote. How did they get in?

tsunamifury 3mo ago

If you look at Elk Grove Village, Illinois as their budget there after declaring they would become the AI Datacenter Capital of the World -- there is an obvious answer: Suburbs cannot continue to pay for their infrastructure without drastically increasing taxes or finding new sources of income.

alistairSH 3mo ago

And on the flip side, I live in Fairfax County, VA and there are data centers EVERYWHERE. Especially if I cross into Ashburn (home of AOL and stuff) - literally mixed in with large townhome developments. And the current plan - building a data center in Canaan Valley - is a whopper... 785 MW natural gas power plant on site with diesel generator backups (solely for the data center, not sold back to grid), 500+ acres of land, 2 million sqft initial building space, air quality impact assessment by the state is heavily redacted, $4 billion price tag. All right next to one of DC's most popular outdoor/skiing recreation areas. The DC would loom over the two towns that support the entire region.

cucumber3732842 3mo ago
>not sold back to grid) They'd probably love to sell spare capacity back to the grid but the way interconnection is handled they'd likely be on the hook for a bunch of other upgrades to facilitate that hence why they're not. You can't "just" add generation to the capacity to the grid without $5-15mil (could be way more but that'll usually torpedo a project) of cost.

SoftTalker 3mo ago

It's easy for politicians to support a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Nobody will really oppose it, and it's a safe way to appear to be "fighting for the community."

dec0dedab0de 3mo ago

Most of it is anti-AI sentiment, there are already a ton of people who have lost jobs, or clients to AI. What bothers me is clearing forests, sometimes even protected forests with the idea that they'll ask for forgiveness instead of permission.

judemelancon 3mo ago
I don't think they have an interest in forgiveness. I'm not sure it's a concept in their worldview.

neutronicus 3mo ago

Data centers are conflated with rising energy costs. It's partly about people's nominal objections, but mostly an attempt to hold them hostage to extract some energy bill subsidies (and general cost of living relief).

jancsika 3mo ago

> What’s missing from this strange conversation is discussion about how many data center proposals are near residential areas. What's strange is that you didn't once mention the layperson's fear of data center projects in their county/state potentially raising the cost of consumer electricity. I've never heard a layperson mention data centers without mentioning that fear. Have you really heard zero occurrences of that fear in your view-from-Mars survey of this issue?

BeetleB 3mo ago

I can't speak for elsewhere, but a town near me has a few data centers, and the anti-datacenter sentiment precedes their use for LLMs. They simply take a lot of space, and the city gave sweet tax deals, and they employ almost no one. The locals aren't happy with that type of land use.