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> A great achievement of European science and technology It's an amazing piece of technology but this is... wildly wrong. ASML is a multi-national company that

by petcat 3mo ago

> A great achievement of European science and technology It's an amazing piece of technology but this is... wildly wrong. ASML is a multi-national company that licenses IP largely from USA and Japan, but also Taiwan and Germany. The actual EUV light source is developed and produced in California by Cymer, which ASML acquired in 2013. But ASML was only permitted to acquire the company under a strict technology sharing and export control agreement with the US government. Additionally, a huge portion of the photolithography research is directly developed (and owned) by US companies and research organizations such as IBM, Albany NanoTech, and SEMATECH. There is a reason why ASML's next-generation research photolithography machine is currently being installed and developed in upstate New York, and not somewhere in the Netherlands. The same reason that Cymer is still in San Diego instead of being relocated to Europe. Because it's American technology. But Europe certainly plays a huge role in it. https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-hochul-announces-ny-creates-begins-installation-first-major-tool-high-na-euv https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-hochul-announces-n... https://research.ibm.com/blog/euv-center-albany-nstc https://research.ibm.com/blog/euv-center-albany-nstc https://www.eetimes.com/asml-sematech-team-on-manufacturing-rd-2/ https://www.eetimes.com/asml-sematech-team-on-manufacturing-... https://www.eetimes.com/asml-to-build-400-million-us-research-center/ https://www.eetimes.com/asml-to-build-400-million-us-researc...

Lucasoato 3mo ago
> There is a reason why ASML's next-generation research photolithography machine is currently being installed and developed in upstate New York, and not somewhere in the Netherlands. The same reason that Cymer is still in San Diego instead of being relocated to Europe. Why is the Netherlands government even allowing this?
- grumbelbart2 3mo ago
  The supply chain both in parts for their machines, but also in terms of research and technology for new machines is very deep and very international. If the US states that a technology can only be used by ASML if they keep R&D in the US, then there is no easy alternative for ASML. That is true not only for ASML, but for the semiconductor industry in general. The number of smaller, specialized companies for certain tools, chemicals and software is staggering. And they sit all over the US, Europe, Japan, Taiwan and Korea.
  - UltraSane 3mo ago
    One of the best examples of this is how TOTO the toilet company makes the electrostatic ceramic wafer chucks that hold wafers during processing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIB49e_r1OI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIB49e_r1OI
- arjie 3mo ago
  The entire multinational effort is in US-Europe-E.Asian countries which are a coordinated allied bloc. The Netherlands allows it because they are entirely aligned. Strong mutual defense agreements cover four out of the five crucial countries here (NATO, Anpo, MDT US/ROK) and the last (Taiwan) has arms sales assurances. It’s not like these are strongly opposed nations or anything. Part of the same fleet in some sense.
  - Zigurd 3mo ago
    2023 called...
    - toast0 3mo ago
      Can't undo a 2013 tech sharing agreement because you got a call in 2023...
      - Zigurd 3mo ago
        Technically NATO is much harder to undo, and yet there we go.
        toast0 3mo ago
        It's much easier to discontinue military (and other) cooperation than it is to unshare knowledge.
    - hunterpayne 3mo ago
      Russia invaded in 2022, Trump was elected in late 2024 and took office in 2025. The out of context quote that kicked all this off was in 2017 or 2018. Somehow you picked the one year out of the last 10 or so that didn't matter for any of this. The really wild thing about this whole narrative is how unlikely this entire sequence of events was. Let's review: 1) Trump gives some rambling answer to an Estonian journalist in 2017 (or 2018) in which he says about 4 different things, all of which conflict with each other. 2) That journalist clips the answer to make it sound like Trump wants to leave NATO. 3) European leaders lose their mind and for the first time in 35 years actually up their military spending. Something that every US president since Bush Sr has made a major foreign policy goal that ever single administration failed at. 4) So completely by mistake, a journalist nobody has ever heard of, handed Trump the biggest foreign policy win for any US president since Bush Sr. 5) Russia invades Ukraine 6) Sweden and Finland join NATO 7) Trump wins the 2024 election and cuts off some of the Ukrainian aid (but not intelligence sharing). 8) The removal of US limitations on Ukraine allows them to strike Russian oil infrastructure. 9) Russia can no longer afford to fund their war in the way they had been. 10) Ukraine is now actually winning. So somehow, Trump has gotten a huge foreign policy win and helped turn around the war in Ukraine completely by accident. Its like watching a cow talk.
- saidnooneever 3mo ago
  if they dont allow it ASML will move away and they have nothing.
- shrubble 3mo ago
  The EUV lithography process and other pieces that comprise what ASML sells was developed with US government funding, and it remains encumbered by that. The US government thus has veto power over the tech, and thus over ASML.
- vlovich123 3mo ago
  Because ASML acquired the US company that created this tech and the agreement for allowing Netherlands to do so was that the tech and know how remain in the US.
- throw1234567891 3mo ago
  Because the EUV light source is an invention originated in the USA and therefore it is under US export controls. No light source, no machine.
  - kube-system 3mo ago
    It wasn't just invented in the US, it was co-invented by the US government itself. https://www.osti.gov/biblio/1413999 https://www.osti.gov/biblio/1413999
llm_nerd 3mo ago
> The actual EUV light source is developed and produced in California by Cymer, which ASML acquired in 2013. Cymer was one of multiple vendors (Gigaphoton, XTREME) providing this sort of light source, and ASML acquired it because it couldn't achieve what they wanted (they needed 100+W and Cymer could only achieve 15W). ASML needed to control and fund the company, and add engineering talent, to achieve what they actually needed. Oh and ASML bought Cymer because Gigaphoton (another company at basically the same stage of development as Cymer), being a Japanese company, objected to foreign control. Though if ASML knew the protectionist, insular direction the US was going to go they probably would rethink their past decisions. So this retconning that Cymer is really the secret magic of ASML and the Netherlands is just stealing US ingenuity is hilarious stuff. And for that matter, it is amazing how so often we hear about "American" tech that is actually overwhelmingly combining acquisitions and manpower from abroad. Like is an iPhone an "American" creation? LOL, no.
- petcat 3mo ago
  > the secret magic of ASML and the Netherlands is just stealing US ingenuity is hilarious stuff. I never said anything about ASML stealing technology or ingenuity. The point is that EUV photolithography is an international effort. The machines don't exist at all without about 6 different countries contributing technology and expertise. ASML has certainly proven itself to be a very capable integrator of many international technologies and processes.
  - saberience 3mo ago
    Most of those technologies being European, including the most difficult to make components in the system. Why isn't there an American company doing this? Why isn't an American company making the lasers, mirrors, metrology, vacuum handling tech, etc?
    - tonyhart7 3mo ago
      they are licensed to European company yes reason why US didn't produce most of these component because US gov didn't continue investment so privately owned enterprise take over from there namely ASML that also reason why US can restrict EUV sales to china
saberience 3mo ago
[flagged]
saberience 3mo ago
The most absurdly biased and inaccurate take on ASML I've ever seen, congrats. If the machines are so easy to build and integrate, why isn't it happening in America?
- fragmede 3mo ago
  Can't build shit in America. Not even data centers.
actuallyship 3mo ago
> There is a reason why ASML's next-generation research photolithography machine is currently being installed and developed in upstate New York, and not somewhere in the Netherlands. This is a wildly ignorant comment. The R&D lab in NY State if anything is an effort to copy IMEC, the world's leading research organization when it comes to semiconductor R&D. They essentially set and define the roadmap for node advancements and then the industry follows by actually implementing their innovations at scale in their fabs. I guess they are technically not in the Netherlands, being located about 50 miles south of the Dutch border in Belgium. And they have in fact have an EXE system of their own, and have had access to ASML's high-na tools since before they were even commercially available
- haldujai 3mo ago
  Agreed. Berkeley / CXRO is the American beyond-NA research center not Albany NanoTech which doesn’t have a charter AFAIK. They are just beginning to install the EXE:5200 in Albany now.. They do have the xLight program which doesn’t have a true European equivalent but still is a strategic partner of ASML who have experimented with FEL in the past.
tjwebbnorfolk 3mo ago
ASML is the only real tech company in the EU. Just let them have this one :)
- Xalutiono 3mo ago
  Europe has ARM, Infinion, Siemens and co. And Trumpf and no Trump so
  - tjwebbnorfolk 3mo ago
    You're right I'm sorry. Europe has at least 2 other tech companies that matter. (Infineon is a commodity manufacturer). In the US we count these by the thousands, but you're right that there's still someone in Europe not stitching together leather handbags.
lardosaurusrex 3mo ago
The US is currently aggravating practically every other country on the planet and writing like this only pisses everyone else involved all the more. I'm not sure if it's wise to minimise the contributions of everyone else in the current climate tbh.
- NetMageSCW 3mo ago
  As opposed to the parent post that left the US out entirely?

by petcat 3mo ago

Lucasoato 3mo ago

> There is a reason why ASML's next-generation research photolithography machine is currently being installed and developed in upstate New York, and not somewhere in the Netherlands. The same reason that Cymer is still in San Diego instead of being relocated to Europe. Why is the Netherlands government even allowing this?

grumbelbart2 3mo ago
The supply chain both in parts for their machines, but also in terms of research and technology for new machines is very deep and very international. If the US states that a technology can only be used by ASML if they keep R&D in the US, then there is no easy alternative for ASML. That is true not only for ASML, but for the semiconductor industry in general. The number of smaller, specialized companies for certain tools, chemicals and software is staggering. And they sit all over the US, Europe, Japan, Taiwan and Korea.
- UltraSane 3mo ago
  One of the best examples of this is how TOTO the toilet company makes the electrostatic ceramic wafer chucks that hold wafers during processing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIB49e_r1OI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIB49e_r1OI
arjie 3mo ago
The entire multinational effort is in US-Europe-E.Asian countries which are a coordinated allied bloc. The Netherlands allows it because they are entirely aligned. Strong mutual defense agreements cover four out of the five crucial countries here (NATO, Anpo, MDT US/ROK) and the last (Taiwan) has arms sales assurances. It’s not like these are strongly opposed nations or anything. Part of the same fleet in some sense.
- Zigurd 3mo ago
  2023 called...
  - toast0 3mo ago
    Can't undo a 2013 tech sharing agreement because you got a call in 2023...
    - Zigurd 3mo ago
      Technically NATO is much harder to undo, and yet there we go.
      - toast0 3mo ago
        It's much easier to discontinue military (and other) cooperation than it is to unshare knowledge.
  - hunterpayne 3mo ago
    Russia invaded in 2022, Trump was elected in late 2024 and took office in 2025. The out of context quote that kicked all this off was in 2017 or 2018. Somehow you picked the one year out of the last 10 or so that didn't matter for any of this. The really wild thing about this whole narrative is how unlikely this entire sequence of events was. Let's review: 1) Trump gives some rambling answer to an Estonian journalist in 2017 (or 2018) in which he says about 4 different things, all of which conflict with each other. 2) That journalist clips the answer to make it sound like Trump wants to leave NATO. 3) European leaders lose their mind and for the first time in 35 years actually up their military spending. Something that every US president since Bush Sr has made a major foreign policy goal that ever single administration failed at. 4) So completely by mistake, a journalist nobody has ever heard of, handed Trump the biggest foreign policy win for any US president since Bush Sr. 5) Russia invades Ukraine 6) Sweden and Finland join NATO 7) Trump wins the 2024 election and cuts off some of the Ukrainian aid (but not intelligence sharing). 8) The removal of US limitations on Ukraine allows them to strike Russian oil infrastructure. 9) Russia can no longer afford to fund their war in the way they had been. 10) Ukraine is now actually winning. So somehow, Trump has gotten a huge foreign policy win and helped turn around the war in Ukraine completely by accident. Its like watching a cow talk.
saidnooneever 3mo ago
if they dont allow it ASML will move away and they have nothing.
shrubble 3mo ago
The EUV lithography process and other pieces that comprise what ASML sells was developed with US government funding, and it remains encumbered by that. The US government thus has veto power over the tech, and thus over ASML.
vlovich123 3mo ago
Because ASML acquired the US company that created this tech and the agreement for allowing Netherlands to do so was that the tech and know how remain in the US.
throw1234567891 3mo ago
Because the EUV light source is an invention originated in the USA and therefore it is under US export controls. No light source, no machine.
- kube-system 3mo ago
  It wasn't just invented in the US, it was co-invented by the US government itself. https://www.osti.gov/biblio/1413999 https://www.osti.gov/biblio/1413999

llm_nerd 3mo ago

> The actual EUV light source is developed and produced in California by Cymer, which ASML acquired in 2013. Cymer was one of multiple vendors (Gigaphoton, XTREME) providing this sort of light source, and ASML acquired it because it couldn't achieve what they wanted (they needed 100+W and Cymer could only achieve 15W). ASML needed to control and fund the company, and add engineering talent, to achieve what they actually needed. Oh and ASML bought Cymer because Gigaphoton (another company at basically the same stage of development as Cymer), being a Japanese company, objected to foreign control. Though if ASML knew the protectionist, insular direction the US was going to go they probably would rethink their past decisions. So this retconning that Cymer is really the secret magic of ASML and the Netherlands is just stealing US ingenuity is hilarious stuff. And for that matter, it is amazing how so often we hear about "American" tech that is actually overwhelmingly combining acquisitions and manpower from abroad. Like is an iPhone an "American" creation? LOL, no.

petcat 3mo ago
> the secret magic of ASML and the Netherlands is just stealing US ingenuity is hilarious stuff. I never said anything about ASML stealing technology or ingenuity. The point is that EUV photolithography is an international effort. The machines don't exist at all without about 6 different countries contributing technology and expertise. ASML has certainly proven itself to be a very capable integrator of many international technologies and processes.
- saberience 3mo ago
  Most of those technologies being European, including the most difficult to make components in the system. Why isn't there an American company doing this? Why isn't an American company making the lasers, mirrors, metrology, vacuum handling tech, etc?
  - tonyhart7 3mo ago
    they are licensed to European company yes reason why US didn't produce most of these component because US gov didn't continue investment so privately owned enterprise take over from there namely ASML that also reason why US can restrict EUV sales to china

saberience 3mo ago

[flagged]

saberience 3mo ago

The most absurdly biased and inaccurate take on ASML I've ever seen, congrats. If the machines are so easy to build and integrate, why isn't it happening in America?

fragmede 3mo ago
Can't build shit in America. Not even data centers.

actuallyship 3mo ago

> There is a reason why ASML's next-generation research photolithography machine is currently being installed and developed in upstate New York, and not somewhere in the Netherlands. This is a wildly ignorant comment. The R&D lab in NY State if anything is an effort to copy IMEC, the world's leading research organization when it comes to semiconductor R&D. They essentially set and define the roadmap for node advancements and then the industry follows by actually implementing their innovations at scale in their fabs. I guess they are technically not in the Netherlands, being located about 50 miles south of the Dutch border in Belgium. And they have in fact have an EXE system of their own, and have had access to ASML's high-na tools since before they were even commercially available

haldujai 3mo ago
Agreed. Berkeley / CXRO is the American beyond-NA research center not Albany NanoTech which doesn’t have a charter AFAIK. They are just beginning to install the EXE:5200 in Albany now.. They do have the xLight program which doesn’t have a true European equivalent but still is a strategic partner of ASML who have experimented with FEL in the past.

tjwebbnorfolk 3mo ago

ASML is the only real tech company in the EU. Just let them have this one :)

Xalutiono 3mo ago
Europe has ARM, Infinion, Siemens and co. And Trumpf and no Trump so
- tjwebbnorfolk 3mo ago
  You're right I'm sorry. Europe has at least 2 other tech companies that matter. (Infineon is a commodity manufacturer). In the US we count these by the thousands, but you're right that there's still someone in Europe not stitching together leather handbags.

lardosaurusrex 3mo ago

The US is currently aggravating practically every other country on the planet and writing like this only pisses everyone else involved all the more. I'm not sure if it's wise to minimise the contributions of everyone else in the current climate tbh.

NetMageSCW 3mo ago
As opposed to the parent post that left the US out entirely?