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Is „frontier“ overused? I thought frontier models were the best-of-the-best such as Fable right now. I assume you can’t host these models yourself since you wou
by moontear 2mo ago
Is „frontier“ overused? I thought frontier models were the best-of-the-best such as Fable right now. I assume you can’t host these models yourself since you would need many GB of RAM and expensive GPU of is my thinking of „frontier models“ wrong?
- 44za12 2mo ago+1 came here to say this, I opened the link expecting some technical breakthrough. Misleading click bait title.
- bnfcl 2mo agoHad the same though. The gap between open-source and the frontier is closing in, especially with Kimi K3, but that is like >2T parameters. The Gemma 4 and other models you can actually run on an average Mac, is not in the same league.
- zeckalpha 2mo agoThe frontier is a curve. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_front https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_front
- IshKebab 2mo agoThat's not what people are normally referring to when they say "frontier models". It means the most capable models full stop. Not the most capable that you can run locally.
- chrisweekly 2mo agotrue but tfa's title says "frontier open models"
- wmf 2mo agoFrontier open models are Kimi K3, GLM 5.2, DeepSeek V4 Pro, etc. They're all too big to fit on most Macs.
- andsoitis 2mo ago> tfa's title says "frontier open models" Does it? I read: "Run AI models locally on your Mac."
- IshKebab 2mo agoThe submission is "Nativ: Run frontier open models locally on your Mac" and on the page it says "Nativ puts frontier intelligence on your desk."
- barnabee 2mo agoI’ve always seen the frontier shown as a curve on a plot. Frontier ≠ SOTA
- zarzavat 2mo agoFrontier = SOTA. Pareto frontier ≠ frontier.
- kube-system 2mo agoThat is one sense, but it is also use to refer to the frontier of capability. Especially in this context.
- dragonwriter 2mo agoThe frontier is a multidimensional space defined by the “best” combination of traits a model can have in multiple dimensions: parameter size [smaller is better], various task metrics, and relative token generation speed on like hardware [faster is better], and active memory requirements [smaller is better] are all possible dimensions, and a model on the frontier of the current options space is one where getting better on one of those measures cannot be done without getting worse on at least one of the others.
- dofm 2mo agoI don't know that I agree with this specific use of frontier because it is confusable as you say. But (off on a tangent) I do think that there are multiple frontiers generally — and I also think the open weights, small local model frontier is by far the most important and exciting one. I keep mucking about with what Gemma 4 12B can do and every time I do I find myself thinking that all the energies in the AI world are going in entirely the wrong direction, because it is small, clever, efficient and remarkable. If all of that research money were to be spent on improving AI models that fit inside a 16GB RAM machine with unified memory, I think really important progress could be made. I enjoy using the Qwen 3.6 models (and BottleCap's new fine tune of the 27B) but the small Gemma 4 models are impressive in a way that I think is going quite unreported. So while I don't think this website should use the word "frontier" here, even referring to Qwen 3.6 27B which is weirdly close, I think it could.
- lukevp 2mo agoI’ve got a 32 gig m1 MacBook Pro. how would I go about trying Gemma like you mentioned? Would it run at an acceptable speed, and what could I do? Coding?
- brody_hamer 2mo ago“docker run open-webui:ollama” is a simple way to start. Don’t expect much for coding. But it’s great for general knowledge, rubber ducking, image classification…
- dofm 2mo agoI figure it might be quite a competent general coding teacher for more, er, consumer programming languages, for want of a better word — python, PHP, JS. Seems to be pretty solid on WP knowledge too. And I find it curiously interesting when talking about photography. I've been finding it intriguing to ask it about my own photos and make suggestions about other images to research. I just showed it three of my own photos, and asked it to analyse them and recommend photographers I should research. It recommended someone amazing I have never heard of before. But it also recommended a 19th century British photographer who happens to be my lifelong photographic hero — someone whose broad characteristics inform what I do without me slavishly copying them. Bit of a jaw-dropping moment for it to have picked up their influence in subject matter that they would never have approached. I'm still suggesting it more to people for them to see what the small-model future might look like, because it's so much more capable than one might expect.
- lucideer 2mo agoIt might be overused elsewhere but I don't think its use here is inappropriate given it's qualified: it doesn't say "frontier models", it says "frontier open models".
- oersted 2mo agoI was confused too, but I believe that it refers to the Pareto Frontier: the best set of solutions to a multi-objective problem. Look it up, it’s a bit difficult to explain concisely in words but it is intuitive visually. If we are thinking of intelligence and price, a model will be in the Pareto Frontier if there’s no cheaper model of the same or higher intelligence. Or if there’s no more intelligent model for that price or lower. EDIT: See this chart from Artificial Analysis: https://artificialanalysis.ai/#intelligence-comparison-tabs https://artificialanalysis.ai/#intelligence-comparison-tabs So for example DeepSeek V4 Pro can be considered a frontier model because there's no cheaper model that is as intelligent. For any solution in the Pareto Frontier, there no "no-brainer" alternative, in the sense that there's no other option that is better in some way without giving up something else. It's the best of its "weight-class".
- andsoitis 2mo agoThe subtitle on their website is: "Nativ puts frontier intelligence on your desk". Also, the title is "Run AI models locally on your Mac," not "Run frontier open models locally on your Mac."
- moontear 2mo agoVery interesting rabbit hole for today. Thanks for mentioning Pareto frontier!
- jboss10 2mo agoI think this is one of the easiest to understand. https://arena.ai/leaderboard/text/pareto https://arena.ai/leaderboard/text/pareto
- oersted 2mo agoThat’s a good visualization, although I am a bit mistrustful of Arena’s scores. It does get around the fact that models are getting trained for the benchmarks, but the methodology of letting random people compare outputs side-by-side is a very shallow judgement method in my opinion. EDIT: Indeed looking at the overall rankings for text again, the list is rather strange, a lot more about writing style than intelligence.
- jdthedisciple 2mo agoNo, your thinking is 100% correct. It's called clickbait.