5 ms·

You use a very vague language to tie violence in Sweden to immigrants. Then you link a study without really going much about how the study supports your claims

You use a very vague language to tie violence in Sweden to immigrants. Then you link a study without really going much about how the study supports your claims, as if that is evidence of what you suggest. You are gesturing to one thing - "there's a study on gang violence in Sweden" - and presenting it as evidence of another thing - "immigrants are to blame for gang violence". So I decided to engage with it and read the damn thing; I suppose you did not (or if you did you are hypocritically linking it hoping no one else does: > One of the most consistent findings in research on societal responses to a collective threat is the tendency for the majority population to seek culpability, often by attributing blame to an outgroup perceived to be associated with the perpetrators (Frey, 2022; Ramirez and Kim, 2024). This process, known as scapegoating, is a psychological coping mechanism in which individuals displace frustration or anxiety onto an entire group (Frey, 2022). And this, buddy, is precisely what you are doing.

dijit 3mo ago
> So I decided to engage with it and read the damn thing Huh, so did I... but clearly one of us didn't read it thoroughly enough. The first sentence of the abstract says the surge in shootings is "disproportionately involving young men with immigrant backgrounds". Page 2: people with an immigrant background are 80% of shooting victims and 64% of perpetrators (citing Brå). You seem to just skip to the theory section page 13 regarding scapegoating. To be fair, the original claim was overcooked in two places. "All linked" should be "most", and "more than any other country" needs a qualifier: 1) Brå compared Sweden with 22 other European countries. Sweden is the only one with a continuous rise in gun homicide since 2005 https://bra.se/english/publications/archive/2021-05-26-gun-homicide-in-sweden-and-other-european-countries https://bra.se/english/publications/archive/2021-05-26-gun-h... 2) the OECD's own conclusion was that 2014–15 Sweden saw the largest per-capita inflow of asylum seekers ever recorded in an OECD country https://www.oecd.org/en/publications/international-migration-outlook-2016_migr_outlook-2016-en.html https://www.oecd.org/en/publications/international-migration... 3) Brå's register study puts the relative risk of being a crime suspect at 2.5x for the foreign-born and 3.2x for the second generation, with excess risk remaining after controlling for age, sex, income and education https://bra.se/english/publications/archive/2021-08-25-registered-offending-among-persons-of-native-and-non-native-background https://bra.se/english/publications/archive/2021-08-25-regis... https://bra.se/download/18.45e4b8e192705389a34c2b/1729515966490/2021_9_Registered_offending_among_persons.pdf https://bra.se/download/18.45e4b8e192705389a34c2b/1729515966... The most dangerous, then, are "Swedish" persons with a migrant background, born and raised in Sweden- I'm not sure how to answer that, but that's really uncomfortable. 4) None of this is a fringe reading. Magdalena Andersson (Social Democrat, then PM) said in 2022 that integration had failed and produced parallel societies feeding the gangs... Kristersen as PM (right wing) said the same thing a year later.. so it has some broad bipartisan agreement. https://www.euronews.com/2022/04/29/us-sweden-immigration https://www.euronews.com/2022/04/29/us-sweden-immigration https://www.government.se/speeches/2023/09/prime-minister-ulf-kristerssons-address-to-the-nation/ https://www.government.se/speeches/2023/09/prime-minister-ul...
- belorn 3mo ago
  For non-Swedes, all the links with the domain "bra.se" is the government department for prevention of crime, and as part of that role has been given the objective from the government to collect crime statistic. They provide data, conclusions and advice the government on how to effectively combat crime. They also have direct access to police and court databases in order to achieve their objectives. They are the official source for crime statistics in Sweden.
  - Gud 3mo ago
    Should be noted that for years(decades?) they didn't do any statistics regarding the heritage of criminals because of the taboo, while a massive influx of migrants was coming. https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/svt-s-rundringning-visar-majoritet-i-riksdagen-ratar-brottsstatistik-over-ursprung https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/svt-s-rundringning-visar-...
  - jb1991 3mo ago
    I find it fascinating that people in this thread are arguing against raw government crime statistics and are asking for further evidence of this problem.
    - g-b-r 3mo ago
      Where? I didn't see anyone contest official crime statistics?
- surgical_fire 3mo ago
  I did read the study. The problem is that those statistics are doing something sensible. There are uncomfortable statistics related to immigrants, and your point #4, the thing about integration not being properly done creating parallel societies is a real problem that can and should be addressed properly. But that's not what the person I replied to was doing - "all linked to people that were openly accepted through its refugee programs" No, the study says that a foreign-born person is "2.5x" more likely to be a "crime suspect". That can mean a lot of things (e.g.: how many of them were actually convicted). Also, they are minority. Presuming all of them are convicted, it's still a minority that has about double the odds of being criminals. The logical consequence is that a lot of Swedish people are criminals if there's an explosion of gang violence. Maybe the problem is the Swedish approach to guns? I live in a country that has a shitton of immigrants and is not seeing this surge of gun violence. You see, we can discuss this properly without engaging in ethnonationalist bullshit.
jb1991 3mo ago
First, I’m not your buddy, and that kind of condescending language doesn’t really help the discussion. Second, I assumed these issues were common knowledge since the frequent shootings in broad daylight that have rocked Sweden in the last couple of years have been from immigrant gang violence, and I mistakenly assumed everyone was aware of these news reports. But perhaps it’s only most obvious here in Europe. There are other comments in this thread that are expressing the situation better than I am.
- surgical_fire 3mo ago
  [flagged]
  - jb1991 3mo ago
    I don't know what an "ethnonationalist" is but it sounds derogatory, and replacing "buddy" with what I assume is an even worse insult is not helping the discourse here. I do not live in Sweden, but the gang violence and problems reported there are in the news and I read about it frequently. The was the point of my original post, which is that there is a context to this discussion that many probably aren't getting because they have no direct links to the society there. I think some of the other comments in this thread do a better job of underscoring this point than I am. Some of the other commenters here (from Sweden, it seems) are doing a better job than me at explaining the problem, so I defer to them: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48977076 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48977076 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48976762 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48976762 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48977054 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48977054
  - ad404b8a372f2b9 3mo ago
    Just have some balls and call him a cunt if you're going to insult him, at least there will be no misunderstanding. I can't stand these kind of passive aggressive middle-of-the-road insults, you clearly think he's a scumbag, stand by your beliefs instead of speaking like you work in HR.
    - 3mo ago

dijit 3mo ago

> So I decided to engage with it and read the damn thing Huh, so did I... but clearly one of us didn't read it thoroughly enough. The first sentence of the abstract says the surge in shootings is "disproportionately involving young men with immigrant backgrounds". Page 2: people with an immigrant background are 80% of shooting victims and 64% of perpetrators (citing Brå). You seem to just skip to the theory section page 13 regarding scapegoating. To be fair, the original claim was overcooked in two places. "All linked" should be "most", and "more than any other country" needs a qualifier: 1) Brå compared Sweden with 22 other European countries. Sweden is the only one with a continuous rise in gun homicide since 2005 https://bra.se/english/publications/archive/2021-05-26-gun-homicide-in-sweden-and-other-european-countries https://bra.se/english/publications/archive/2021-05-26-gun-h... 2) the OECD's own conclusion was that 2014–15 Sweden saw the largest per-capita inflow of asylum seekers ever recorded in an OECD country https://www.oecd.org/en/publications/international-migration-outlook-2016_migr_outlook-2016-en.html https://www.oecd.org/en/publications/international-migration... 3) Brå's register study puts the relative risk of being a crime suspect at 2.5x for the foreign-born and 3.2x for the second generation, with excess risk remaining after controlling for age, sex, income and education https://bra.se/english/publications/archive/2021-08-25-registered-offending-among-persons-of-native-and-non-native-background https://bra.se/english/publications/archive/2021-08-25-regis... https://bra.se/download/18.45e4b8e192705389a34c2b/1729515966490/2021_9_Registered_offending_among_persons.pdf https://bra.se/download/18.45e4b8e192705389a34c2b/1729515966... The most dangerous, then, are "Swedish" persons with a migrant background, born and raised in Sweden- I'm not sure how to answer that, but that's really uncomfortable. 4) None of this is a fringe reading. Magdalena Andersson (Social Democrat, then PM) said in 2022 that integration had failed and produced parallel societies feeding the gangs... Kristersen as PM (right wing) said the same thing a year later.. so it has some broad bipartisan agreement. https://www.euronews.com/2022/04/29/us-sweden-immigration https://www.euronews.com/2022/04/29/us-sweden-immigration https://www.government.se/speeches/2023/09/prime-minister-ulf-kristerssons-address-to-the-nation/ https://www.government.se/speeches/2023/09/prime-minister-ul...

belorn 3mo ago
For non-Swedes, all the links with the domain "bra.se" is the government department for prevention of crime, and as part of that role has been given the objective from the government to collect crime statistic. They provide data, conclusions and advice the government on how to effectively combat crime. They also have direct access to police and court databases in order to achieve their objectives. They are the official source for crime statistics in Sweden.
- Gud 3mo ago
  Should be noted that for years(decades?) they didn't do any statistics regarding the heritage of criminals because of the taboo, while a massive influx of migrants was coming. https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/svt-s-rundringning-visar-majoritet-i-riksdagen-ratar-brottsstatistik-over-ursprung https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/svt-s-rundringning-visar-...
- jb1991 3mo ago
  I find it fascinating that people in this thread are arguing against raw government crime statistics and are asking for further evidence of this problem.
  - g-b-r 3mo ago
    Where? I didn't see anyone contest official crime statistics?
surgical_fire 3mo ago
I did read the study. The problem is that those statistics are doing something sensible. There are uncomfortable statistics related to immigrants, and your point #4, the thing about integration not being properly done creating parallel societies is a real problem that can and should be addressed properly. But that's not what the person I replied to was doing - "all linked to people that were openly accepted through its refugee programs" No, the study says that a foreign-born person is "2.5x" more likely to be a "crime suspect". That can mean a lot of things (e.g.: how many of them were actually convicted). Also, they are minority. Presuming all of them are convicted, it's still a minority that has about double the odds of being criminals. The logical consequence is that a lot of Swedish people are criminals if there's an explosion of gang violence. Maybe the problem is the Swedish approach to guns? I live in a country that has a shitton of immigrants and is not seeing this surge of gun violence. You see, we can discuss this properly without engaging in ethnonationalist bullshit.

jb1991 3mo ago

First, I’m not your buddy, and that kind of condescending language doesn’t really help the discussion. Second, I assumed these issues were common knowledge since the frequent shootings in broad daylight that have rocked Sweden in the last couple of years have been from immigrant gang violence, and I mistakenly assumed everyone was aware of these news reports. But perhaps it’s only most obvious here in Europe. There are other comments in this thread that are expressing the situation better than I am.

surgical_fire 3mo ago
[flagged]
- jb1991 3mo ago
  I don't know what an "ethnonationalist" is but it sounds derogatory, and replacing "buddy" with what I assume is an even worse insult is not helping the discourse here. I do not live in Sweden, but the gang violence and problems reported there are in the news and I read about it frequently. The was the point of my original post, which is that there is a context to this discussion that many probably aren't getting because they have no direct links to the society there. I think some of the other comments in this thread do a better job of underscoring this point than I am. Some of the other commenters here (from Sweden, it seems) are doing a better job than me at explaining the problem, so I defer to them: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48977076 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48977076 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48976762 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48976762 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48977054 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48977054
- ad404b8a372f2b9 3mo ago
  Just have some balls and call him a cunt if you're going to insult him, at least there will be no misunderstanding. I can't stand these kind of passive aggressive middle-of-the-road insults, you clearly think he's a scumbag, stand by your beliefs instead of speaking like you work in HR.
  - 3mo ago