3 ms·

In the homelessness example, it's not so much that the programs and groups want to justify their continued existence (though that might be happening too). It's

In the homelessness example, it's not so much that the programs and groups want to justify their continued existence (though that might be happening too). It's that the programs themselves incentivize more of the problem. When they give things to homeless people, such as food, shelter, clothes, social services, even needles and a "safe place" to get high in some cases, and often with few or no conditions, they make being homeless more tolerable. Word gets around, and people who could not feasibly be homeless where they are are drawn to Portland because they will get more support there.

cwmoore 4mo ago
Jail time is a sure spiral into unemployment and homelessness, privations, and more jailtime.
tikhonj 4mo ago
None of those things make homelessness appealing in any absolute sense. Like, if people had a (reasonable-to-them) path to getting a home, the vast majority would go for it even if there were a bunch of services available. The real answer is that the electorate is vehemently opposed to providing paths like that if those paths feel even remotely like "unfair handouts". Votes hate that idea even if it would be empirically cheaper. We collectively preserve the problem of homelessness because we feel like people who can't/won't work deserve to be unhappy, because we believe that we need the threat of homelessness to coerce people into working, because we believe people on drugs/etc are undisciplined and immoral, because... well, you get the idea.
inigyou 4mo ago
I don't think many people are being homeless by choice no matter how comfortable it is. Perhaps it makes more of them choose homelessness over suicide but I don't think it's making anyone choose homelessness over homefulness. You know what does though? Making it really hard to get a home. That makes more people homeless. I hope that's obvious.
- Ferret7446 4mo ago
  Quite a few are homeless by choice. There are shelters available but they choose not to go because the shelters ban drugs. So they choose drugs over shelter.
  - superb_dev 4mo ago
    Shelters also ban lots of normal things that make them harder to use, or have onerous rules around your schedule that make working impossible. There are a lot more reasons people don’t use shelters
    - DeluluDon 4mo ago
      I was homeless for 6 years in the PNW due to PTSD. A lot of people do not, under any circumstances, feel comfortable sleeping next to a violent offender, child abuser, or gang member. So they sleep outside and risk a lot instead. When I was there, I counted about 2 drug users out of 100 people in a shelter in Spokane, Washington. The rest were either ex convicts, disabled/mental issues, or just simply lost their home.
      - brabel 3mo ago
        I thought most homeless were drug addicts?! It’s hard to believe a healthy person could fall into homelessness. Maybe as OC mentioned only those who don’t do drugs go to shelters.
        inigyou 3mo ago
        Suppose you got surprise evicted tomorrow and you didn't have any family nearby, you'd be homeless too.
        brabel 3mo ago
        You only end up on the streets if a lot of things go really wrong : No family nearby. No friends willing to take you. No money to pay for rent even in the cheapest areas. No cheap temporary accommodation nearby of any sort. No government provided emergency housing available. If you want to make it personal, I live in Sweden. There are lots of options available and no one lives on the streets if not for a mental illness that prevents you from seeking help, as help is available and easy to get. You can get a salary for indeterminate amount of time and pay for your own accommodation as long as you show you’re looking for jobs. If your job pays too little you can get a stipend from the government to pay for rent and food. So yeah I am sure I would never get homeless even if everything went wrong for me. If you live in a country where that’s not the case, you should really question what should the priorities of your country be (notice that basically all developed countries in the world and even many developing ones provide everything I mentioned above, with possibly one single, big exception).
conception 4mo ago
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

cwmoore 4mo ago

Jail time is a sure spiral into unemployment and homelessness, privations, and more jailtime.

tikhonj 4mo ago

None of those things make homelessness appealing in any absolute sense. Like, if people had a (reasonable-to-them) path to getting a home, the vast majority would go for it even if there were a bunch of services available. The real answer is that the electorate is vehemently opposed to providing paths like that if those paths feel even remotely like "unfair handouts". Votes hate that idea even if it would be empirically cheaper. We collectively preserve the problem of homelessness because we feel like people who can't/won't work deserve to be unhappy, because we believe that we need the threat of homelessness to coerce people into working, because we believe people on drugs/etc are undisciplined and immoral, because... well, you get the idea.

inigyou 4mo ago

I don't think many people are being homeless by choice no matter how comfortable it is. Perhaps it makes more of them choose homelessness over suicide but I don't think it's making anyone choose homelessness over homefulness. You know what does though? Making it really hard to get a home. That makes more people homeless. I hope that's obvious.

Ferret7446 4mo ago
Quite a few are homeless by choice. There are shelters available but they choose not to go because the shelters ban drugs. So they choose drugs over shelter.
- superb_dev 4mo ago
  Shelters also ban lots of normal things that make them harder to use, or have onerous rules around your schedule that make working impossible. There are a lot more reasons people don’t use shelters
  - DeluluDon 4mo ago
    I was homeless for 6 years in the PNW due to PTSD. A lot of people do not, under any circumstances, feel comfortable sleeping next to a violent offender, child abuser, or gang member. So they sleep outside and risk a lot instead. When I was there, I counted about 2 drug users out of 100 people in a shelter in Spokane, Washington. The rest were either ex convicts, disabled/mental issues, or just simply lost their home.
    - brabel 3mo ago
      I thought most homeless were drug addicts?! It’s hard to believe a healthy person could fall into homelessness. Maybe as OC mentioned only those who don’t do drugs go to shelters.
      - inigyou 3mo ago
        Suppose you got surprise evicted tomorrow and you didn't have any family nearby, you'd be homeless too.
        brabel 3mo ago
        You only end up on the streets if a lot of things go really wrong : No family nearby. No friends willing to take you. No money to pay for rent even in the cheapest areas. No cheap temporary accommodation nearby of any sort. No government provided emergency housing available. If you want to make it personal, I live in Sweden. There are lots of options available and no one lives on the streets if not for a mental illness that prevents you from seeking help, as help is available and easy to get. You can get a salary for indeterminate amount of time and pay for your own accommodation as long as you show you’re looking for jobs. If your job pays too little you can get a stipend from the government to pay for rent and food. So yeah I am sure I would never get homeless even if everything went wrong for me. If you live in a country where that’s not the case, you should really question what should the priorities of your country be (notice that basically all developed countries in the world and even many developing ones provide everything I mentioned above, with possibly one single, big exception).

conception 4mo ago

The beatings will continue until morale improves.