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They literally do have hard evidence. They have records of an employee (Chang Liu) who left for OpenAI copying dozens and dozens of files off of their server af

They literally do have hard evidence. They have records of an employee (Chang Liu) who left for OpenAI copying dozens and dozens of files off of their server after he left.

aprilthird2021 3mo ago
That's not enough though. He could have been acting rogue or for some other reason. That alone won't win in court
- Danox 3mo ago
  Among 40 ex Apple employees come on at least five or six of them probably crossed the line in their enthusiasm to get the big bucks. If it was a small number, four or five total, maybe, but not 40.
  - JumpCrisscross 3mo ago
    Also, Apple confronted OpenAI about LOL Liu. OpenAI’s response wasn’t to fire him, conduct an investigation and confidentially settle with Apple. It was to go cold.
    - aprilthird2021 3mo ago
      Why would they fire him and settle with Apple? If they haven't done anything wrong, why settle? If he hasn't used the material at work but has some problem with his former employer, why fire him?
      - JumpCrisscross 3mo ago
        > If they haven't done anything wrong, why settle? One, because the evidence is damning–and comprehensive–against their interests, and OpenAI has a ticking clock around fundraising and going public that an ongoing lawsuit with Apple endangers. Two, because based on all the facts in the public domain–and Sam Altman's documented history of lying–the likelihood of Apple succeeding on the merits of this case are high. Someone at OpenAI seems to have sensed this when they went cold on Apple's legal letters. > If he hasn't used the material at work The evidence presented shows Liu demonstrating a total lack of character and judgmeent, quite possibly to a criminal level. The fact that OpenAI is confused about why this is bad is their own condemnation.
        aprilthird2021 3mo ago
        > the evidence is damning–and comprehensive–against their interests No it is not. An employee stole info from his former employer. There is no proof OpenAI asked for this or used it in any way. Employees could plausibly do such things thinking they will benefit over their peers at their new job without disclosing this to the new job. > the likelihood of Apple succeeding on the merits of this case are high Not if OpenAI hasn't actually solicited any of this or used any of that info. In discovery nothing will be found and the case will end there. > The evidence presented shows Liu demonstrating a total lack of character and judgmeent, quite possibly to a criminal level Character and judgment are not the most sought after qualities at a certain level of hard to recruit for work. They also might want to wait for the results of a trial to fire him as he could sue for wrongful termination if a court acquits him of stealing documents (still possible there could be evidentiary issues etc.)
  - aprilthird2021 3mo ago
    "come on" isn't any kind of proof
- iAMkenough 3mo ago
  "acting rogue" but faced no action from OpenAI after this came to light
  - aprilthird2021 3mo ago
    Because it's part of an investigation. Again this isn't proof of anything. He may have not ever used this information at work yet and so this is an issue between him and his former employer
    - iAMkenough 3mo ago
      Can you share more details about the investigation? Typically the staff member being investigated would be placed on administrative leave during a lawsuit like this, even if they did nothing wrong. The fact that it didn't happen makes me think the investigation isn't being conducted properly.
      - aprilthird2021 3mo ago
        They are currently in a suit with Apple over this. If they fire him and Apple loses the suit and a jury decides he didn't even steal documents (a possible outcome) then he can sue for wrongful termination.
        iAMkenough 3mo ago
        Administrative leave isn't firing him. He still has access to manipulate the internal investigation, which will be argued by Apple's lawyers.
hn_throwaway_99 3mo ago
Not to mention text messages to existing Apple employees saying he could still access Apple servers after being term'ed and bragging about it "lol"!

They literally do have hard evidence. They have records of an employee (Chang Liu) who left for OpenAI copying dozens and dozens of files off of their server after he left.

aprilthird2021 3mo ago

That's not enough though. He could have been acting rogue or for some other reason. That alone won't win in court

Danox 3mo ago
Among 40 ex Apple employees come on at least five or six of them probably crossed the line in their enthusiasm to get the big bucks. If it was a small number, four or five total, maybe, but not 40.
- JumpCrisscross 3mo ago
  Also, Apple confronted OpenAI about LOL Liu. OpenAI’s response wasn’t to fire him, conduct an investigation and confidentially settle with Apple. It was to go cold.
  - aprilthird2021 3mo ago
    Why would they fire him and settle with Apple? If they haven't done anything wrong, why settle? If he hasn't used the material at work but has some problem with his former employer, why fire him?
    - JumpCrisscross 3mo ago
      > If they haven't done anything wrong, why settle? One, because the evidence is damning–and comprehensive–against their interests, and OpenAI has a ticking clock around fundraising and going public that an ongoing lawsuit with Apple endangers. Two, because based on all the facts in the public domain–and Sam Altman's documented history of lying–the likelihood of Apple succeeding on the merits of this case are high. Someone at OpenAI seems to have sensed this when they went cold on Apple's legal letters. > If he hasn't used the material at work The evidence presented shows Liu demonstrating a total lack of character and judgmeent, quite possibly to a criminal level. The fact that OpenAI is confused about why this is bad is their own condemnation.
      - aprilthird2021 3mo ago
        > the evidence is damning–and comprehensive–against their interests No it is not. An employee stole info from his former employer. There is no proof OpenAI asked for this or used it in any way. Employees could plausibly do such things thinking they will benefit over their peers at their new job without disclosing this to the new job. > the likelihood of Apple succeeding on the merits of this case are high Not if OpenAI hasn't actually solicited any of this or used any of that info. In discovery nothing will be found and the case will end there. > The evidence presented shows Liu demonstrating a total lack of character and judgmeent, quite possibly to a criminal level Character and judgment are not the most sought after qualities at a certain level of hard to recruit for work. They also might want to wait for the results of a trial to fire him as he could sue for wrongful termination if a court acquits him of stealing documents (still possible there could be evidentiary issues etc.)
- aprilthird2021 3mo ago
  "come on" isn't any kind of proof
iAMkenough 3mo ago
"acting rogue" but faced no action from OpenAI after this came to light
- aprilthird2021 3mo ago
  Because it's part of an investigation. Again this isn't proof of anything. He may have not ever used this information at work yet and so this is an issue between him and his former employer
  - iAMkenough 3mo ago
    Can you share more details about the investigation? Typically the staff member being investigated would be placed on administrative leave during a lawsuit like this, even if they did nothing wrong. The fact that it didn't happen makes me think the investigation isn't being conducted properly.
    - aprilthird2021 3mo ago
      They are currently in a suit with Apple over this. If they fire him and Apple loses the suit and a jury decides he didn't even steal documents (a possible outcome) then he can sue for wrongful termination.
      - iAMkenough 3mo ago
        Administrative leave isn't firing him. He still has access to manipulate the internal investigation, which will be argued by Apple's lawyers.

hn_throwaway_99 3mo ago

Not to mention text messages to existing Apple employees saying he could still access Apple servers after being term'ed and bragging about it "lol"!