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Predictions on who wins? Does Apple actually have a winnable case or are they just throwing a wrench in things?

by bix6 3mo ago

moralestapia 3mo ago
Apple is not the company that makes this sort of thing just for fun. Also, they don't have a directly competing business with OpenAI, so slander doesn't make sense. I think this is genuine.
- deleted 3mo ago
  [deleted]
rancar2 3mo ago
Oh the irony if Apple can get a larger OpenAI stake than Microsoft.
- JumpCrisscross 3mo ago
  I don’t think Cupertino will settle for stock. I think they’ll demand cash and an agreement that OpenAI abandon or reboot their hardware project. In the meantime, Apple gets an open kimono into everything OpenAI has planned. This could actually be the fuckup that kills OpenAI as an independent company. The threat of a cash judgement gums up not only an IPO, but also debt-based fundraising. (We equity guys are idiots, so we’ll probably keep writing cheques until the market turns.)
  - an0malous 3mo ago
    > This could actually be the fuckup that kills OpenAI as an independent company. I wonder if they’ll be the Lehman Brothers of this bubble
    - the_lucifer 3mo ago
      > I wonder if they’ll be the Lehman Brothers of this bubble That's exactly what this Yahoo Finance article today calls them at least [1] [1]: https://finance.yahoo.com/technology/ai/articles/lehman-brothers-ai-why-one-101718007.html https://finance.yahoo.com/technology/ai/articles/lehman-brot...
      - an0malous 3mo ago
        Can’t wait to see all these libertarian venture capitalists begging for another government bailout
  - thewebguyd 3mo ago
    > reboot their hardware project This could go way beyond any potential hardware project, depending on whats actually true from the allegations and how much of Apple's trade secrets have been used or shared within OpenAI. There were rumors a while back of OpenAI building some integrations into macOS akin to the Shortcuts app, and who knows what other computer use type projects. They could very well have been using information from within Apple for that. It's kind of a fruit of a poisonous tree problem. If OpenAI used any of Apple's secrets broadly, Apple could ask the court for an injunction to block the deployment of any software from OpenAI. If discovery proves the IP contamination spread into other areas within OpenAI, it could completely freeze all of their deployments. If Apple actually has the receipts here they could realistically bring down OpenAI entirely.
    - senordevnyc 3mo ago
      If OpenAI used any of Apple's secrets broadly, Apple could ask the court for an injunction to block the deployment of any software from OpenAI. If discovery proves the IP contamination spread into other areas within OpenAI, it could completely freeze all of their deployments. I find this so funny. Can you share an example or two of where something like this has ever happened to one of the largest companies in the world? There is no universe where some judge orders that OpenAI can no longer deploy any software, for anyone (including huge swaths of the federal government) because of the alleged actions of a few people, and it’s allowed to stand. Zero chance. I’ll say one thing for Sama: he might have a lot of haters, but it’s not that hard to prove them wrong with predictions like these.
      - thewebguyd 3mo ago
        > Can you share an example or two of where something like this has ever happened to one of the largest companies in the world? Waymo (Google) vs. Uber & Anthony Levandowski. Google was granted an injunction that ordered Uber to immediately halt all development on self driving tech. Apple also bankrupted Pystar for stealing trade secrets. Levandowski would have served actual jail time if he didn't get a pardon. Property rights and trade secret laws don't just magically vanish because a company has government contracts or a high valuation.
  - senordevnyc 3mo ago
    This take seems wildly disconnected from reality. My prediction: this will result in a relatively modest undisclosed settlement and OpenAI won’t abandon, or even modify, their hardware product because of this. And Apple definitely won’t get an “open kimono” to everything OpenAI has planned. This is two of the largest, most powerful, most well-capitalized companies on the planet in a legal fight. People are taking sides because of their hatred of Sama, and it results in these bizarro takes that OpenAI is finished as a company lol. Guess we’ll see.
    - the_lucifer 3mo ago
      > most well-capitalized companies Huh what? Since when is OpenAI's IOU's and paper money worth more than Apple's cold hard cash? They have been backing away from their infrastructure commitments and literally pushing their IPO out. Their "value" might fly with idiot VC's that are willing to throw money at them based on vibes. They are "big" on paper, nothing close to the financial heft of Apple. If anything this is where Sam Altman’s reality-distortion-field isn't going to fly. > ... it results in these bizarro takes that OpenAI is finished as a company lol. Meanwhile there's repeated news of OpenAI barely making ends meet and poised to run out of money mid next year. Unfortunately, OpenAI being 'well-capitalized' just doesn't hold up to what we've been actively seeing.
      - senordevnyc 3mo ago
        How much do you think they actually need to fight this? BP spent a billion on defense attorneys for Deepwater Horizon. There’s a zero percent chance it costs OpenAI anywhere close to that to fight this, but even if it did, a billion over the next few years wouldn’t even be a speed bump for them.
    - quickthrowman 3mo ago
      > This is two of the largest, most powerful, most well-capitalized companies on the planet in a legal fight. OpenAI being well-capitalized made me laugh out loud, thanks for the humor :) Apple has a ridiculous amount of cash, AA credit, and makes $100B of net income per year. OpenAI has none of those attributes, what they do have is investors willing to bankroll them, for now.
nojito 3mo ago
Both parties will just settle. Apple already caught former employees accessing the Apple internal network with unreturned laptops after termination that’s pretty much game over.
- smith7018 3mo ago
  Why would Apple settle? They probably want the same outcomes of the Waymo v Uber trial that forced Uber out of the market. Apple's accusations imply that every part of OpenAI's hardware effort has been tainted with Apple's trade secrets and is therefore illegitimate. They also have more money than God so they can keep the suit going as long as they want.
  - staticman2 3mo ago
    Uber was not forced to leave the self driving car market by Waymo's litigation. The litigation ended in February 2018 and Uber left the market in December 2020.
    - JumpCrisscross 3mo ago
      I think it’s fair to argue that Uber’s self-driving efforts never recovered after that trial.
      - digitalPhonix 3mo ago
        Pretty sure it was the crash (same story with Cruise for that matter)
    - consp 3mo ago
      Cause and effect can be delayed.
  - xp84 3mo ago
    This is an interesting point here. Due to having infinite money already, that's a possible dynamic we might see. OAI admits "Yup, obviously you got us. Let's write a check." And Apple might just respond "Nah, we are obviously going to win at trial, the legal fees don't bother us a bit, and honestly we don't really need the money, we'd rather destroy you as heavily as possible, for some combination of making an example out of all the criminals involved, plus there's a tiny chance you could threaten us someday considering you hired 'our boy' Jony Ive to build hardware."
MichaelZuo 3mo ago
It would be very strange for Apple’s legal department to send out formal letters filled with claims on a lark.
- nba456_ 3mo ago
  Not really, just slowing down a potential competitor could still be worth it.
  - gsibble 3mo ago
    That's never been Apple's playbook with lawsuits at least.
  - steve1977 3mo ago
    I don't think they would consider OpenAI a potential competitor, unless OpenAI has trade secrets of Apple.
ksec 3mo ago
Generally speaking, I think Apple tends to win on anything related to ex-employees. I am not sure if this is normal across Big-Tech. But surely is for Apple. Depending on what is at stake. Example the one with Nuvia and Qualcomm I believe they just settled.
jasode 3mo ago
>Does Apple actually have a winnable case Based on the previous thread, Apple seems to have damning evidence of wrongdoing by the (ex)employees before-and-after they left their positions at Apple: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48865019 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48865019 Seems very similar to Google/Waymo winning its case against Uber (ex-Googler Anthony Levandowski) stealing corporate data. Apple has the employees' emails history, the server access logs, etc. Really don't see Apple pursuing this unless they had a mountain of evidence against them.

Predictions on who wins? Does Apple actually have a winnable case or are they just throwing a wrench in things?

by bix6 3mo ago

Predictions on who wins? Does Apple actually have a winnable case or are they just throwing a wrench in things?

Apple is not the company that makes this sort of thing just for fun. Also, they don't have a directly competing business with OpenAI, so slander doesn't make sense. I think this is genuine.

deleted 3mo ago
[deleted]

rancar2 3mo ago

Oh the irony if Apple can get a larger OpenAI stake than Microsoft.

JumpCrisscross 3mo ago
I don’t think Cupertino will settle for stock. I think they’ll demand cash and an agreement that OpenAI abandon or reboot their hardware project. In the meantime, Apple gets an open kimono into everything OpenAI has planned. This could actually be the fuckup that kills OpenAI as an independent company. The threat of a cash judgement gums up not only an IPO, but also debt-based fundraising. (We equity guys are idiots, so we’ll probably keep writing cheques until the market turns.)
- an0malous 3mo ago
  > This could actually be the fuckup that kills OpenAI as an independent company. I wonder if they’ll be the Lehman Brothers of this bubble
  - the_lucifer 3mo ago
    > I wonder if they’ll be the Lehman Brothers of this bubble That's exactly what this Yahoo Finance article today calls them at least [1] [1]: https://finance.yahoo.com/technology/ai/articles/lehman-brothers-ai-why-one-101718007.html https://finance.yahoo.com/technology/ai/articles/lehman-brot...
    - an0malous 3mo ago
      Can’t wait to see all these libertarian venture capitalists begging for another government bailout
- thewebguyd 3mo ago
  > reboot their hardware project This could go way beyond any potential hardware project, depending on whats actually true from the allegations and how much of Apple's trade secrets have been used or shared within OpenAI. There were rumors a while back of OpenAI building some integrations into macOS akin to the Shortcuts app, and who knows what other computer use type projects. They could very well have been using information from within Apple for that. It's kind of a fruit of a poisonous tree problem. If OpenAI used any of Apple's secrets broadly, Apple could ask the court for an injunction to block the deployment of any software from OpenAI. If discovery proves the IP contamination spread into other areas within OpenAI, it could completely freeze all of their deployments. If Apple actually has the receipts here they could realistically bring down OpenAI entirely.
  - senordevnyc 3mo ago
    If OpenAI used any of Apple's secrets broadly, Apple could ask the court for an injunction to block the deployment of any software from OpenAI. If discovery proves the IP contamination spread into other areas within OpenAI, it could completely freeze all of their deployments. I find this so funny. Can you share an example or two of where something like this has ever happened to one of the largest companies in the world? There is no universe where some judge orders that OpenAI can no longer deploy any software, for anyone (including huge swaths of the federal government) because of the alleged actions of a few people, and it’s allowed to stand. Zero chance. I’ll say one thing for Sama: he might have a lot of haters, but it’s not that hard to prove them wrong with predictions like these.
    - thewebguyd 3mo ago
      > Can you share an example or two of where something like this has ever happened to one of the largest companies in the world? Waymo (Google) vs. Uber & Anthony Levandowski. Google was granted an injunction that ordered Uber to immediately halt all development on self driving tech. Apple also bankrupted Pystar for stealing trade secrets. Levandowski would have served actual jail time if he didn't get a pardon. Property rights and trade secret laws don't just magically vanish because a company has government contracts or a high valuation.
- senordevnyc 3mo ago
  This take seems wildly disconnected from reality. My prediction: this will result in a relatively modest undisclosed settlement and OpenAI won’t abandon, or even modify, their hardware product because of this. And Apple definitely won’t get an “open kimono” to everything OpenAI has planned. This is two of the largest, most powerful, most well-capitalized companies on the planet in a legal fight. People are taking sides because of their hatred of Sama, and it results in these bizarro takes that OpenAI is finished as a company lol. Guess we’ll see.
  - the_lucifer 3mo ago
    > most well-capitalized companies Huh what? Since when is OpenAI's IOU's and paper money worth more than Apple's cold hard cash? They have been backing away from their infrastructure commitments and literally pushing their IPO out. Their "value" might fly with idiot VC's that are willing to throw money at them based on vibes. They are "big" on paper, nothing close to the financial heft of Apple. If anything this is where Sam Altman’s reality-distortion-field isn't going to fly. > ... it results in these bizarro takes that OpenAI is finished as a company lol. Meanwhile there's repeated news of OpenAI barely making ends meet and poised to run out of money mid next year. Unfortunately, OpenAI being 'well-capitalized' just doesn't hold up to what we've been actively seeing.
    - senordevnyc 3mo ago
      How much do you think they actually need to fight this? BP spent a billion on defense attorneys for Deepwater Horizon. There’s a zero percent chance it costs OpenAI anywhere close to that to fight this, but even if it did, a billion over the next few years wouldn’t even be a speed bump for them.
  - quickthrowman 3mo ago
    > This is two of the largest, most powerful, most well-capitalized companies on the planet in a legal fight. OpenAI being well-capitalized made me laugh out loud, thanks for the humor :) Apple has a ridiculous amount of cash, AA credit, and makes $100B of net income per year. OpenAI has none of those attributes, what they do have is investors willing to bankroll them, for now.

nojito 3mo ago

Both parties will just settle. Apple already caught former employees accessing the Apple internal network with unreturned laptops after termination that’s pretty much game over.

smith7018 3mo ago
Why would Apple settle? They probably want the same outcomes of the Waymo v Uber trial that forced Uber out of the market. Apple's accusations imply that every part of OpenAI's hardware effort has been tainted with Apple's trade secrets and is therefore illegitimate. They also have more money than God so they can keep the suit going as long as they want.
- staticman2 3mo ago
  Uber was not forced to leave the self driving car market by Waymo's litigation. The litigation ended in February 2018 and Uber left the market in December 2020.
  - JumpCrisscross 3mo ago
    I think it’s fair to argue that Uber’s self-driving efforts never recovered after that trial.
    - digitalPhonix 3mo ago
      Pretty sure it was the crash (same story with Cruise for that matter)
  - consp 3mo ago
    Cause and effect can be delayed.
- xp84 3mo ago
  This is an interesting point here. Due to having infinite money already, that's a possible dynamic we might see. OAI admits "Yup, obviously you got us. Let's write a check." And Apple might just respond "Nah, we are obviously going to win at trial, the legal fees don't bother us a bit, and honestly we don't really need the money, we'd rather destroy you as heavily as possible, for some combination of making an example out of all the criminals involved, plus there's a tiny chance you could threaten us someday considering you hired 'our boy' Jony Ive to build hardware."

MichaelZuo 3mo ago

It would be very strange for Apple’s legal department to send out formal letters filled with claims on a lark.

nba456_ 3mo ago
Not really, just slowing down a potential competitor could still be worth it.
- gsibble 3mo ago
  That's never been Apple's playbook with lawsuits at least.
- steve1977 3mo ago
  I don't think they would consider OpenAI a potential competitor, unless OpenAI has trade secrets of Apple.

ksec 3mo ago

Generally speaking, I think Apple tends to win on anything related to ex-employees. I am not sure if this is normal across Big-Tech. But surely is for Apple. Depending on what is at stake. Example the one with Nuvia and Qualcomm I believe they just settled.

jasode 3mo ago

>Does Apple actually have a winnable case Based on the previous thread, Apple seems to have damning evidence of wrongdoing by the (ex)employees before-and-after they left their positions at Apple: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48865019 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48865019 Seems very similar to Google/Waymo winning its case against Uber (ex-Googler Anthony Levandowski) stealing corporate data. Apple has the employees' emails history, the server access logs, etc. Really don't see Apple pursuing this unless they had a mountain of evidence against them.