3 ms·

Stainless steel rebar is a thing. It's expensive, but structures built with it last much longer. Washington State now has a policy that bridges over salt water

by Animats 3mo ago

Stainless steel rebar is a thing. It's expensive, but structures built with it last much longer. Washington State now has a policy that bridges over salt water will be built with stainless steel rebar. Stainless steel costs much more, but total project cost goes up less than 10%. Epoxy coated rebar looked promising for a while, but it's on the way out. Water gets in at cuts and joints. So all field joints have to have field patching. There is a great comparison. Two piers were built in the 1940s, side by side, one with carbon steel rebar, one with stainless steel rebar.[1] Go look. [1] https://worldstainless.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/ref19_case_study_of_progreso_pier.pdf https://worldstainless.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/ref19_... [1] https://worldstainless.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/ref19_case_study_of_progreso_pier.pdf https://worldstainless.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/ref19_...

ErroneousBosh 3mo ago
> Stainless steel costs much more, but total project cost goes up less than 10%. I think people are often surprised how little materials cost affects the total cost of a job. I'm having this argument at work, where I want some more expensive cabling installed in a bunch of offices across Scotland so it doesn't need to be done again in another ten year's time, but "that stuff is so expensive, do we really need it?" is what I'm running up against. So as it turns out today I'm giving them a breakdown of the cost of the job. Guess what the expensive bits are? Did you guess "wages for two guys, hotel rooms for two guys, 800 miles of diesel, and a couple of ferry tickets?" Well, you're way ahead of today's crowd then.
- iamflimflam1 3mo ago
  I hope you’re prepared for a huge amount of bike shedding… but if we pick this color, we can save a couple of dollars…
  - ErroneousBosh 3mo ago
    It's going in a suspended ceiling so it has to be purple.
- rkangel 3mo ago
  In general, in the UK, labour costs dominate. How do people not understand that?! This is what's interesting with AI pricing at the moment - it has gone from "a fraction of the equivalent labour cost" and so people have tried to cut staff, and is moving to "on par with labour cost" and all the calculations change.
  - bena 3mo ago
    Not just the UK, labor is usually the dominant cost of anything. Our house flooded about half a foot a year or two ago. I had to replace all the baseboards. The damage was assessed at $40k. I tried to contact contractors to do the work, but the job was so insignificant compared to other jobs in the area, and we were in the middle of getting our house raised, that it was taking forever. Including tools I did not have prior, material costs ran about $5k - $7k. I did the work around my job and other obligations, so about one day a week for a couple of months. If I were to honestly guess, it probably took me about two weeks. And that's measuring, cutting, installing, caulking, and painting. And there were some inefficiencies in my process.
- PunchyHamster 3mo ago
  > I think people are often surprised how little materials cost affects the total cost of a job. It's because they frankly never did it. Nobody that had to contract something around the house is surprised by cost like that, it often costs more than price of renting equipment + you doing it yourself 3 times slower than an expert would did it, even if you're paid well. There is reason there is so many DIY channels, labour costs are high and install costs of some stuff can be ridiculous (like 2 hour job to install AC costing more than cheap AC unit). That's also partly the reason the more expensive materials are used - if they offer savings in labour (say way faster to put in), they might be worth it vs paying someone for more hours
  - ErroneousBosh 3mo ago
    Yeah. I mean I just had some concrete slabs laid to put a bike shed on (literally bikeshedding, the colour is green, that's what it comes powdercoated in from the supplier, take it or leave it). It was 300 quid. I could not buy the materials for 300 quid. Two guys showed up with eight slabs, half a tonne of Type 2 and half a tonne of sand, and then the next day the landscaper showed up and did about six hours of work to dig it all out, fill it all in, and put the slabs down. It's absolutely perfect, exactly how I wanted it, and it would have taken me a couple of days and cost far more - and I'm quite good at that kind of stuff, it's just not what I do all day every day so the landscaper will be far better at it.
    - jimnotgym 3mo ago
      My experience when i was in the trade is very few people know what perfect looks like, and so are perfectly willing to forego decent workmanship in favour of cheap. One of the reasons I left the trade, you could make more money doing a bad job, and I had no desire to do that.
  - SoftTalker 3mo ago
    It's why plumbers use $25 sharkbite fittings now instead of soldering in a $2 copper fitting. But of course the sharkbite relies on a rubber O-ring and will probably leak in 10 years, the plumber will be long gone or the property probably under new ownership who don't remember.
- cucumber3732842 3mo ago
  >I think people are often surprised how little materials cost affects the total cost of a job. Because people don't understand how much compliance and box checking and check the guy who checked the last guy's work there is in a "you need government permission for this and not the easy permission they give a homeowner deck project" sized construction project.
- _n_b_ 3mo ago
  I've worked on a few big EPC projects in a specialised industrial sector, including some in the UK. Three things drive the first digit of cost, assuming you've hired relatively competent engineers and constructors: 1. (Design) Building floorplate and architectural complexity (i.e., divergence from 'big box') 2. (Construction) Schedule adherence. Almost any one-off expense to stick to the schedule is worth it, but to your point, these are often challenged or delayed. Building and testing equipment on skids off-site is almost always worth it. 3. (Design/Commissioning) Schedule adherence. For commissioning this is typically driven by design choices (did you pick a high-TRL process, or if not, do all the work required to mature it in parallel to construction?) and by building the right commissioning team (knows their job, knows the plant). If more expensive plant & equipment gets you ahead on any of these 3, 99% of the time that is an overall optimisation.
  - SoftTalker 3mo ago
    Not permitting and regulation? We're told that is the biggest impediment to development.
    - tristor 3mo ago
      Permitting and regulation is generally a sub-component to each of the three things mentioned, and can be a major factor in schedule adherence for large scale construction projects. Whether that is the primary impediment or not is often a factor of the specifics of the project (and its design) and the overall environment. During major events (e.g. COVID), materials access and availability was a far more challenging aspect of schedule adherence for most large projects than any other factor. I've never worked in this field as the GP, but I have family that do and I've heard plenty of stories and made my own observations, but definitely take my two cents with plenty of salt. Maybe GP will reply also.
      - _n_b_ 3mo ago
        A week late but... in my experience (potentially sector/location specific but I don't think so), most high-risk licensing and permitting activities come before construction starts, and certainly almost always before above-ground construction starts. So regulatory issues may challenge overall project viability, but you tend to know before cash is sunk if you're going to be, for instance, refused planning permission.
- quickthrowman 3mo ago
  > Did you guess "wages for two guys, hotel rooms for two guys, 800 miles of diesel, and a couple of ferry tickets?" Yes, but I happen to sell and run electrical work so it’s an easy question ;)
yorwba 3mo ago
> Two piers were built in the 1940s, side by side As far as I can tell, only one pier was built (using stainless steel rebar) and the presentation is comparing it to a hypothetical alternative as a theoretical exercise: "What if the Progreso Pier was built using carbon steel rebar?"
- boringg 3mo ago
  I think that was the prior pier maybe in the picture? The main pier only has one - it’s massive and goes forever. Pretty beefy construction too given that it takes a lot of heavy trucks. Progreso - great pier and a great kiteboarding spot.
world2vec 3mo ago
There's also Glass Fiber Reinforced Polymer rebar but I don't know much about costs and how good it is vs stainless steel rebar.
throw0101d 3mo ago
> Stainless steel rebar is a thing. It's expensive […] That's an understatement. Fiberglass (GFRP) tops out at roughly US$ 2.50/foot, while SS can get up to $9: * https://www.wellcoindustries.com/the-cost-of-rebar-and-the-cost-of-fiberglass-rebar/ https://www.wellcoindustries.com/the-cost-of-rebar-and-the-c... The low-end of plain steel rebar is $0.40.
- IAmBroom 3mo ago
  As the GP noted, it's still only a small bump in overall cost.
  - mixmastamyk 3mo ago
    Also lower TCO, total cost of ownership.
- baybal2 3mo ago
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by Animats 3mo ago

ErroneousBosh 3mo ago

> Stainless steel costs much more, but total project cost goes up less than 10%. I think people are often surprised how little materials cost affects the total cost of a job. I'm having this argument at work, where I want some more expensive cabling installed in a bunch of offices across Scotland so it doesn't need to be done again in another ten year's time, but "that stuff is so expensive, do we really need it?" is what I'm running up against. So as it turns out today I'm giving them a breakdown of the cost of the job. Guess what the expensive bits are? Did you guess "wages for two guys, hotel rooms for two guys, 800 miles of diesel, and a couple of ferry tickets?" Well, you're way ahead of today's crowd then.

iamflimflam1 3mo ago
I hope you’re prepared for a huge amount of bike shedding… but if we pick this color, we can save a couple of dollars…
- ErroneousBosh 3mo ago
  It's going in a suspended ceiling so it has to be purple.
rkangel 3mo ago
In general, in the UK, labour costs dominate. How do people not understand that?! This is what's interesting with AI pricing at the moment - it has gone from "a fraction of the equivalent labour cost" and so people have tried to cut staff, and is moving to "on par with labour cost" and all the calculations change.
- bena 3mo ago
  Not just the UK, labor is usually the dominant cost of anything. Our house flooded about half a foot a year or two ago. I had to replace all the baseboards. The damage was assessed at $40k. I tried to contact contractors to do the work, but the job was so insignificant compared to other jobs in the area, and we were in the middle of getting our house raised, that it was taking forever. Including tools I did not have prior, material costs ran about $5k - $7k. I did the work around my job and other obligations, so about one day a week for a couple of months. If I were to honestly guess, it probably took me about two weeks. And that's measuring, cutting, installing, caulking, and painting. And there were some inefficiencies in my process.
PunchyHamster 3mo ago
> I think people are often surprised how little materials cost affects the total cost of a job. It's because they frankly never did it. Nobody that had to contract something around the house is surprised by cost like that, it often costs more than price of renting equipment + you doing it yourself 3 times slower than an expert would did it, even if you're paid well. There is reason there is so many DIY channels, labour costs are high and install costs of some stuff can be ridiculous (like 2 hour job to install AC costing more than cheap AC unit). That's also partly the reason the more expensive materials are used - if they offer savings in labour (say way faster to put in), they might be worth it vs paying someone for more hours
- ErroneousBosh 3mo ago
  Yeah. I mean I just had some concrete slabs laid to put a bike shed on (literally bikeshedding, the colour is green, that's what it comes powdercoated in from the supplier, take it or leave it). It was 300 quid. I could not buy the materials for 300 quid. Two guys showed up with eight slabs, half a tonne of Type 2 and half a tonne of sand, and then the next day the landscaper showed up and did about six hours of work to dig it all out, fill it all in, and put the slabs down. It's absolutely perfect, exactly how I wanted it, and it would have taken me a couple of days and cost far more - and I'm quite good at that kind of stuff, it's just not what I do all day every day so the landscaper will be far better at it.
  - jimnotgym 3mo ago
    My experience when i was in the trade is very few people know what perfect looks like, and so are perfectly willing to forego decent workmanship in favour of cheap. One of the reasons I left the trade, you could make more money doing a bad job, and I had no desire to do that.
- SoftTalker 3mo ago
  It's why plumbers use $25 sharkbite fittings now instead of soldering in a $2 copper fitting. But of course the sharkbite relies on a rubber O-ring and will probably leak in 10 years, the plumber will be long gone or the property probably under new ownership who don't remember.
cucumber3732842 3mo ago
>I think people are often surprised how little materials cost affects the total cost of a job. Because people don't understand how much compliance and box checking and check the guy who checked the last guy's work there is in a "you need government permission for this and not the easy permission they give a homeowner deck project" sized construction project.
_n_b_ 3mo ago
I've worked on a few big EPC projects in a specialised industrial sector, including some in the UK. Three things drive the first digit of cost, assuming you've hired relatively competent engineers and constructors: 1. (Design) Building floorplate and architectural complexity (i.e., divergence from 'big box') 2. (Construction) Schedule adherence. Almost any one-off expense to stick to the schedule is worth it, but to your point, these are often challenged or delayed. Building and testing equipment on skids off-site is almost always worth it. 3. (Design/Commissioning) Schedule adherence. For commissioning this is typically driven by design choices (did you pick a high-TRL process, or if not, do all the work required to mature it in parallel to construction?) and by building the right commissioning team (knows their job, knows the plant). If more expensive plant & equipment gets you ahead on any of these 3, 99% of the time that is an overall optimisation.
- SoftTalker 3mo ago
  Not permitting and regulation? We're told that is the biggest impediment to development.
  - tristor 3mo ago
    Permitting and regulation is generally a sub-component to each of the three things mentioned, and can be a major factor in schedule adherence for large scale construction projects. Whether that is the primary impediment or not is often a factor of the specifics of the project (and its design) and the overall environment. During major events (e.g. COVID), materials access and availability was a far more challenging aspect of schedule adherence for most large projects than any other factor. I've never worked in this field as the GP, but I have family that do and I've heard plenty of stories and made my own observations, but definitely take my two cents with plenty of salt. Maybe GP will reply also.
    - _n_b_ 3mo ago
      A week late but... in my experience (potentially sector/location specific but I don't think so), most high-risk licensing and permitting activities come before construction starts, and certainly almost always before above-ground construction starts. So regulatory issues may challenge overall project viability, but you tend to know before cash is sunk if you're going to be, for instance, refused planning permission.
quickthrowman 3mo ago
> Did you guess "wages for two guys, hotel rooms for two guys, 800 miles of diesel, and a couple of ferry tickets?" Yes, but I happen to sell and run electrical work so it’s an easy question ;)

yorwba 3mo ago

> Two piers were built in the 1940s, side by side As far as I can tell, only one pier was built (using stainless steel rebar) and the presentation is comparing it to a hypothetical alternative as a theoretical exercise: "What if the Progreso Pier was built using carbon steel rebar?"

boringg 3mo ago
I think that was the prior pier maybe in the picture? The main pier only has one - it’s massive and goes forever. Pretty beefy construction too given that it takes a lot of heavy trucks. Progreso - great pier and a great kiteboarding spot.

world2vec 3mo ago

There's also Glass Fiber Reinforced Polymer rebar but I don't know much about costs and how good it is vs stainless steel rebar.

throw0101d 3mo ago

> Stainless steel rebar is a thing. It's expensive […] That's an understatement. Fiberglass (GFRP) tops out at roughly US$ 2.50/foot, while SS can get up to $9: * https://www.wellcoindustries.com/the-cost-of-rebar-and-the-cost-of-fiberglass-rebar/ https://www.wellcoindustries.com/the-cost-of-rebar-and-the-c... The low-end of plain steel rebar is $0.40.

IAmBroom 3mo ago
As the GP noted, it's still only a small bump in overall cost.
- mixmastamyk 3mo ago
  Also lower TCO, total cost of ownership.
baybal2 3mo ago
[dead]