3 ms·

Distillation is not an attack. It simply a way to train a model. Not doing it when you are behind is akin to snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

mensetmanusman 3mo ago
It is an attack at a sufficient level of sophisticated analysis. If you destroy the game theoretic first mover advantage, then you destroy the economic incentive to improve things.
- rowanG077 3mo ago
  Given that model distillation has existed since the early days of the current AI boom, and no robust defense has been demonstrated, the available evidence does not support your theory.
- ptnpzwqd 3mo ago
  Be that as it may, it would seem absurd if we start calling distillation out as antagonistic, but don't do the same for the SOTA models being trained on human-created data.
joe_the_user 3mo ago
Indeed, Thinking about, if I had a lab, I'd be trying to get training data from a combination of the open web, piracy and all of my revivals. I wonder how labs are doing that.
vonneumannstan 3mo ago
How Xi coded. If you just cheat off the top student in your class that's simply a way to get a good GPA.
- rowanG077 3mo ago
  Ah yes, because if a person agrees with anything a chinese company does it must be because they love Xi. Get real. Munching of the top student in a class is clearly prohibited. Distillation is not cheating, it's learning from your competitor. Akin to a company purchasing their competitor thingamajig to see if you can improve their own product.
  - vonneumannstan 3mo ago
    If your entire competitive advantage is copying your rival's better product and not making any true innovation or improvement and only delivering a slightly worse product its little different than cheating, yes. >Distillation is not cheating Blatantly against ToS of any of the major labs hence their efforts to prevent it. Not saying you are actually a Chinese astroturfer but this is essentially exactly what I would expect one to be saying.
    - rowanG077 3mo ago
      These models are not copies, distillation is simply a part in the pipeline. suggesting that the Chinese models are full copies through distillation is simply wrong. Just because they are distilling does not mean they are not innovating. In fact there is pretty much a consensus in industry that in terms of model size/performance the chinese models are better. But of course we don't know the exact model sizes because OpenAI and Anthropic are not giving access to their models. > Blatantly against ToS of any of the major labs hence their efforts to prevent it. ToS are actively malicious and fortunately not worth the paper they are printed on. Violating a ToS is not illegal or "cheating". > Not saying you are actually a Chinese astroturfer but this is essentially exactly what I would expect one to be saying. The AI industry in china has been acting a lot more moral and forward looking than the, to be frank, mustache twirling evil US parties of Anthropic and OpenAI. Perhaps take that into account before randomly spewing accusations of astroturing.

mensetmanusman 3mo ago

It is an attack at a sufficient level of sophisticated analysis. If you destroy the game theoretic first mover advantage, then you destroy the economic incentive to improve things.

rowanG077 3mo ago
Given that model distillation has existed since the early days of the current AI boom, and no robust defense has been demonstrated, the available evidence does not support your theory.
ptnpzwqd 3mo ago
Be that as it may, it would seem absurd if we start calling distillation out as antagonistic, but don't do the same for the SOTA models being trained on human-created data.

joe_the_user 3mo ago

Indeed, Thinking about, if I had a lab, I'd be trying to get training data from a combination of the open web, piracy and all of my revivals. I wonder how labs are doing that.

vonneumannstan 3mo ago

How Xi coded. If you just cheat off the top student in your class that's simply a way to get a good GPA.

rowanG077 3mo ago
Ah yes, because if a person agrees with anything a chinese company does it must be because they love Xi. Get real. Munching of the top student in a class is clearly prohibited. Distillation is not cheating, it's learning from your competitor. Akin to a company purchasing their competitor thingamajig to see if you can improve their own product.
- vonneumannstan 3mo ago
  If your entire competitive advantage is copying your rival's better product and not making any true innovation or improvement and only delivering a slightly worse product its little different than cheating, yes. >Distillation is not cheating Blatantly against ToS of any of the major labs hence their efforts to prevent it. Not saying you are actually a Chinese astroturfer but this is essentially exactly what I would expect one to be saying.
  - rowanG077 3mo ago
    These models are not copies, distillation is simply a part in the pipeline. suggesting that the Chinese models are full copies through distillation is simply wrong. Just because they are distilling does not mean they are not innovating. In fact there is pretty much a consensus in industry that in terms of model size/performance the chinese models are better. But of course we don't know the exact model sizes because OpenAI and Anthropic are not giving access to their models. > Blatantly against ToS of any of the major labs hence their efforts to prevent it. ToS are actively malicious and fortunately not worth the paper they are printed on. Violating a ToS is not illegal or "cheating". > Not saying you are actually a Chinese astroturfer but this is essentially exactly what I would expect one to be saying. The AI industry in china has been acting a lot more moral and forward looking than the, to be frank, mustache twirling evil US parties of Anthropic and OpenAI. Perhaps take that into account before randomly spewing accusations of astroturing.