4 ms·

It's like reading Anthropic's obituary.

refulgentis 3mo ago
Fable is by Anthropic, and this is too expensive, GLM 5.2 is roughly the same quality at a much cheaper price. (I mantain a client with llama.cpp and 101 models across 14 companies by http)
- LaurensBER 3mo ago
  As much as I like GLM 5.2 it's clearly a step below Opus (or even Fable) for more complicated tasks. I would place it at Opus 4.6/4.7 level. Having said that, the safety system on Fable makes it an extremely unattractive model. It feels that half of the time you're paying double for Opus level performance.
  - jml78 3mo ago
    Fable won’t even generate a jwt to test endpoints because it is security related. It is crazy capable but useless for real work
    - weego 3mo ago
      Unless your real work is outside the scope of one tiny niche of work.
      - arcanemachiner 3mo ago
        Eh, it doesn't hit you until it hits you. I finally bumped into a task that Codex would refuse to work on. Was I attempting to reverse-engineer a GPU driver? Yes. Was I trying to hack into the DoD? No. I wasn't doing anything wrong, but that's not what OpenAI's safety mechanisms thought.
- pimeys 3mo ago
  GLM has issues with tool calls and nested JSON and it wastes tokens pretty often. I see it being a bit above half the price of Opus in a bit more complex eval tasks. With some RL you could probably get the tool calls sorted and the price down.
austinthetaco 3mo ago
This is weird and reactionary. Lots of organizations are continuing to refuse to use chinese models due to security and IP concerns. Anthropic/american models aren't going anywhere anytime soon.
- sscaryterry 3mo ago
  Nope, but I think this is maybe the critical mass needed to finally crash the AI hype/datacenter cost problem everyones is talking about. With Oracle being junk before this, more will follow.
  - stevefan1999 3mo ago
    Oracle is fine, it's just that they can't really expect political decisions that hindered it to accquire TikTok which will be slated to be the biggest customer if the deal went through. Now they are betting with Project Stargate but it also seems to be crumbling down. But don't forget that they literally hold the biggest databases, both in commercial and open source, that is, Oracle Database and MySQL. Plus Oracle Java they literally controls at least 30% of the internet's software infrastructure. And also with a good team of attorneies enforcing the licenses, they can squeeze so much money at the cost of morality. Also recently they downgraded the always free OCI ARM instance from 4C24G to 2C12G without telling anyone.
    - re-thc 3mo ago
      > Oracle is fine They're drowning in debt and risk is increasing. If these US models don't keep holding up their valuation will tank further and some will recall the loans or ask for different terms.
    - calgoo 3mo ago
      New enterprise java licenses are going to milk enterprise just like broadcom is doing. New license deals makes you pay for employee total number (including contractors) instead of for users of oracle java.
scrollop 3mo ago
Nah: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSlV206xPqM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSlV206xPqM These real world examples show it's one tier away.
- deleted 3mo ago
  [deleted]
- VulgarExigency 3mo ago
  These "real world" examples are nothing like the way I use LLMs from within a harness. GPT 5.6 Sol and Fable are clearly more impressive, but how does this translate to interactive agent use, or use under an agent orchestration framework?
  - pimeys 3mo ago
    This is a question I am going to get an answer tomorrow with evals. Extremely interesting...
- zarzavat 3mo ago
  If Chinese AI companies can train a model that's slightly worse than the frontier, then there's no reason why they can't train a model that is slightly better than the frontier. Everybody can agree that K3 doesn't clearly surpass Fable. However, inevitably there will be a time in the future when a Chinese AI company releases a model that's better than any US model. K3 isn't the knockout blow but it's the 2nd knockdown that makes everyone in the arena realize that the fighter is not winning the fight.
  - threatripper 3mo ago
    Anthropic is arguably still better in tooling and integrating model and tooling. Good habit beats raw intelligence. For code editing Cursor editor tooling is even better.
baq 3mo ago
Certainly for their IPO, anyway

Fable is by Anthropic, and this is too expensive, GLM 5.2 is roughly the same quality at a much cheaper price. (I mantain a client with llama.cpp and 101 models across 14 companies by http)

LaurensBER 3mo ago
As much as I like GLM 5.2 it's clearly a step below Opus (or even Fable) for more complicated tasks. I would place it at Opus 4.6/4.7 level. Having said that, the safety system on Fable makes it an extremely unattractive model. It feels that half of the time you're paying double for Opus level performance.
- jml78 3mo ago
  Fable won’t even generate a jwt to test endpoints because it is security related. It is crazy capable but useless for real work
  - weego 3mo ago
    Unless your real work is outside the scope of one tiny niche of work.
    - arcanemachiner 3mo ago
      Eh, it doesn't hit you until it hits you. I finally bumped into a task that Codex would refuse to work on. Was I attempting to reverse-engineer a GPU driver? Yes. Was I trying to hack into the DoD? No. I wasn't doing anything wrong, but that's not what OpenAI's safety mechanisms thought.
pimeys 3mo ago
GLM has issues with tool calls and nested JSON and it wastes tokens pretty often. I see it being a bit above half the price of Opus in a bit more complex eval tasks. With some RL you could probably get the tool calls sorted and the price down.

austinthetaco 3mo ago

This is weird and reactionary. Lots of organizations are continuing to refuse to use chinese models due to security and IP concerns. Anthropic/american models aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

sscaryterry 3mo ago
Nope, but I think this is maybe the critical mass needed to finally crash the AI hype/datacenter cost problem everyones is talking about. With Oracle being junk before this, more will follow.
- stevefan1999 3mo ago
  Oracle is fine, it's just that they can't really expect political decisions that hindered it to accquire TikTok which will be slated to be the biggest customer if the deal went through. Now they are betting with Project Stargate but it also seems to be crumbling down. But don't forget that they literally hold the biggest databases, both in commercial and open source, that is, Oracle Database and MySQL. Plus Oracle Java they literally controls at least 30% of the internet's software infrastructure. And also with a good team of attorneies enforcing the licenses, they can squeeze so much money at the cost of morality. Also recently they downgraded the always free OCI ARM instance from 4C24G to 2C12G without telling anyone.
  - re-thc 3mo ago
    > Oracle is fine They're drowning in debt and risk is increasing. If these US models don't keep holding up their valuation will tank further and some will recall the loans or ask for different terms.
  - calgoo 3mo ago
    New enterprise java licenses are going to milk enterprise just like broadcom is doing. New license deals makes you pay for employee total number (including contractors) instead of for users of oracle java.

scrollop 3mo ago

Nah: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSlV206xPqM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSlV206xPqM These real world examples show it's one tier away.

deleted 3mo ago
[deleted]
VulgarExigency 3mo ago
These "real world" examples are nothing like the way I use LLMs from within a harness. GPT 5.6 Sol and Fable are clearly more impressive, but how does this translate to interactive agent use, or use under an agent orchestration framework?
- pimeys 3mo ago
  This is a question I am going to get an answer tomorrow with evals. Extremely interesting...
zarzavat 3mo ago
If Chinese AI companies can train a model that's slightly worse than the frontier, then there's no reason why they can't train a model that is slightly better than the frontier. Everybody can agree that K3 doesn't clearly surpass Fable. However, inevitably there will be a time in the future when a Chinese AI company releases a model that's better than any US model. K3 isn't the knockout blow but it's the 2nd knockdown that makes everyone in the arena realize that the fighter is not winning the fight.
- threatripper 3mo ago
  Anthropic is arguably still better in tooling and integrating model and tooling. Good habit beats raw intelligence. For code editing Cursor editor tooling is even better.

baq 3mo ago

Certainly for their IPO, anyway