7 ms·

One reason is that Apple does not permit regional binaries, so you cannot use the same listing in the EU/Japan/Brazil/whatever other place may force Apple to ac

One reason is that Apple does not permit regional binaries, so you cannot use the same listing in the EU/Japan/Brazil/whatever other place may force Apple to act sociable and the rest of the world. Creating a separate app would work, but all existing Firefox users would have to download a second Firefox browser app, probably sync their accounts if they want to keep their data, and then remove the old one manually. You'd end with a Google Meet/Microsoft Teams situation (where one app is labeled "new" and it confuses the hell out of everyone). Furthermore, developers cannot actually use the released app they've made if they're in the US, where a lot of Firefox devs are. Then there's the (what I can only presume to be illegal) Apple Tax you need to pay to distribute an app outside of the app store (which is what the Github repo linked is doing), which is an amount paid per user that downloads an app outside of the app store. Epic has promised to cover that cost (out of spite, probably) for one of the major alternative stores, but if they go back on their promises you're suddenly paying Apple so people can use your free app on the phones they bought. There are also other issues (Apple's arbitrary testing requirements, for one); Apple has once again succeeded in implementing the law in such a way that it's impossible to exercise your rights. Until the next big Apple lawsuit about this, I don't expect browser companies to bother with a non-Safari overlay.

ghusto 3mo ago
Sorry, but I don't buy any of that. I've been defending Mozilla for years, but enough's enough. > but all existing Firefox users would have to download a second Firefox browser app, probably sync their accounts if they want to keep their data, and then remove the old one manually. You'd end with a Google Meet/Microsoft Teams situation (where one app is labeled "new" and it confuses the hell out of everyone) You're making it sound like a problem, but those actions are trivial. You tell someone who's dying for a non-webkit browser on iOS "well okay, but you know you'll have to download another browser! And even sign-in again!". You really think they care? > Furthermore, developers cannot actually use the released app they've made if they're in the US, where a lot of Firefox devs are. They absolutely can, because they're free to install development builds, which is what they should be testing anyway. Regardless, if development starts migrating slowly to the EU, that's a natural consequence. > Then there's the (what I can only presume to be illegal) Apple Tax you need to pay to distribute an app outside of the app store This is the only real issue, but even then I'd say Mozilla should take the money they're spending on their current nonsense and spend it here instead. "Our mission is to ensure the Internet is a global public resource, open and accessible to all". Really? Prove it. Furthermore, if we role over on this because of the obviously anticompetitive malicious complience Apple is showing, they win. This is the first step to getting them to remove that fee.
- jeroenhd 3mo ago
  > You tell someone who's dying for a non-webkit browser on iOS Firefox has struggled to get the sliver of market share they have today. I highly doubt that there are that many people like you and me who crave a real Firefox engine on iOS. > which is what they should be testing anyway Having a large part of your team be unable to reproduce bugs is a significant development issue. Some of these operating system features are simply not available outside of the EU. If it were as easy as you're suggesting, Mozilla would have already done it. Google would have already ported Blink over, or Brave, or whatever browser you prefer. So far I think only Ladybird is really trying to go for a custom browser engine, though app store distribution will be an issue until they can pass enough tests (as Apple has decided your browser is not a real browser if it doesn't pass a certain threshold of existing tests).
  - RunSet 3mo ago
    > Firefox has struggled to get the sliver of market share they have today. I highly doubt that there are that many people like you and me who crave a real Firefox engine on iOS. Egg on Apple's face for expending so much effort to deny so few people something they don't actually want.
    - jeroenhd 3mo ago
      So far market demand hasn't pushed Brave, Opera, Vivaldi, or anyone else in this direction. It's not just Mozilla, who is often late to these kinds of developments.
  - wolvoleo 3mo ago
    > I highly doubt that there are that many people like you and me who crave a real Firefox engine on iOS. Let's put this another way, would many people be interested in a full blown adblocker like ublock origin? Because that's what I have on Firefox on Android.
    - jeroenhd 3mo ago
      With how few iOS users I see the existing content blockers already, shockingly few people as far as I can tell. I want to see Brave and Firefox fight it off in an ad-blocking-mobile-browser competition to get some more market share, but it seems like iOS users are content with just Safari and ads. Let me put it another way: why has no other browser company released a browser yet? Mozilla is only a small player, after all.
realusername 3mo ago
> One reason is that Apple does not permit regional binaries, so you cannot use the same listing in the EU/Japan/Brazil/whatever other place may force Apple to act sociable and the rest of the world. Well, sounds like the next lawsuit waiting to happen then if the regulations can't be applied because of that
zeratax 3mo ago
Would they actually need to distribute this app outside of the appstore?
- jeroenhd 3mo ago
  Need to? Probably not. Reynard isn't on the app store, though, so Mozilla's efforts wouldn't be very comparable if it wasn't. Plus, iOS can really use a solid F-Droid alternative.
- wolvoleo 3mo ago
  No, in the EU they should be able to distribute this
wolvoleo 3mo ago
Hmm it worked for Microsoft and other companies have also done a switch as you pointed out (I remember facebook splitting off messenger and later putting it back). > Furthermore, developers cannot actually use the released app they've made if they're in the US, where a lot of Firefox devs are. Yeah that's a bit insane.
- hagbard_c 3mo ago
  Well, there's a solution to this: ditch that fruit phone until the fruit factory allows owners to use their hardware with the software they want. Let them click some boxes that yes, they understand that they'll leave the boundaries of fruity fruitland and beyond this checkbox dragons abide so abandon all hope all who enter here but otherwise let them install the software they want. ... Yes, I thought so too, they won't, not without a court order. Now that several courts have ordered such and there is a precedent which makes clear that those dragons aren't all that fierce the fruit factory shouldn't have any excuses any more but that doesn't bother them just as long as the true believers keep on coming for their indulgences. Hence, ditch that thing and maybe they'll get the message.
  - ebiester 3mo ago
    Or, perhaps, apple users are rational actors that have different weights to their tradeoffs than you. The last time I checked Android, the security and privacy story was much worse than Apple. Further, it's not just me who has to make the change - it's the family I share photos and videos and other things. Yes, I would prefer to have other App Store options, but it is balanced against other issues. (And yes, I have owned an Android phone before - every time I buy a new phone I compare the two again.)
    - hagbard_c 3mo ago
      Nope, they're not rational actors by supporting marketing-driven limitations. These limitations are not needed to create a well-working device, they're only there to keep the profits up because heavens forbid, someone might offer an alternative which allows users to get their software fix without paying their pound of flesh to the app store. The example you gave on it not just being you who needs to change but the family I share photos and videos and other things [with] is all the more proof that you shouldn't touch these mobile prisons with a 3-metre pole. I share my photos and videos and other things with family as well but I don't care what they're using to access them 'cause I use a (self-hosted, but that is not essential) web service for it. No lock-in, no nothing. If you want to view those photos on your Commodore-64, have at it. There's even apps you can use, including one for those stuck on fruit phones. I don't believe the 'security and privacy' story the fruit factory pushes, there've been far too many examples to disprove the narrative. Not that I trust Google, mind you. I use Android but I do not use Google, do not have a Google account, don't have Google services (etc.) on my devices.
fsuts 3mo ago
On android Mozilla already have Firefox and Firefox focus and Firefox nightly So having two versions on iOS would be fine, and as apps can be limited to only show up in some regions wouldn’t be confusing as many would just see one

ghusto 3mo ago

Sorry, but I don't buy any of that. I've been defending Mozilla for years, but enough's enough. > but all existing Firefox users would have to download a second Firefox browser app, probably sync their accounts if they want to keep their data, and then remove the old one manually. You'd end with a Google Meet/Microsoft Teams situation (where one app is labeled "new" and it confuses the hell out of everyone) You're making it sound like a problem, but those actions are trivial. You tell someone who's dying for a non-webkit browser on iOS "well okay, but you know you'll have to download another browser! And even sign-in again!". You really think they care? > Furthermore, developers cannot actually use the released app they've made if they're in the US, where a lot of Firefox devs are. They absolutely can, because they're free to install development builds, which is what they should be testing anyway. Regardless, if development starts migrating slowly to the EU, that's a natural consequence. > Then there's the (what I can only presume to be illegal) Apple Tax you need to pay to distribute an app outside of the app store This is the only real issue, but even then I'd say Mozilla should take the money they're spending on their current nonsense and spend it here instead. "Our mission is to ensure the Internet is a global public resource, open and accessible to all". Really? Prove it. Furthermore, if we role over on this because of the obviously anticompetitive malicious complience Apple is showing, they win. This is the first step to getting them to remove that fee.

jeroenhd 3mo ago
> You tell someone who's dying for a non-webkit browser on iOS Firefox has struggled to get the sliver of market share they have today. I highly doubt that there are that many people like you and me who crave a real Firefox engine on iOS. > which is what they should be testing anyway Having a large part of your team be unable to reproduce bugs is a significant development issue. Some of these operating system features are simply not available outside of the EU. If it were as easy as you're suggesting, Mozilla would have already done it. Google would have already ported Blink over, or Brave, or whatever browser you prefer. So far I think only Ladybird is really trying to go for a custom browser engine, though app store distribution will be an issue until they can pass enough tests (as Apple has decided your browser is not a real browser if it doesn't pass a certain threshold of existing tests).
- RunSet 3mo ago
  > Firefox has struggled to get the sliver of market share they have today. I highly doubt that there are that many people like you and me who crave a real Firefox engine on iOS. Egg on Apple's face for expending so much effort to deny so few people something they don't actually want.
  - jeroenhd 3mo ago
    So far market demand hasn't pushed Brave, Opera, Vivaldi, or anyone else in this direction. It's not just Mozilla, who is often late to these kinds of developments.
- wolvoleo 3mo ago
  > I highly doubt that there are that many people like you and me who crave a real Firefox engine on iOS. Let's put this another way, would many people be interested in a full blown adblocker like ublock origin? Because that's what I have on Firefox on Android.
  - jeroenhd 3mo ago
    With how few iOS users I see the existing content blockers already, shockingly few people as far as I can tell. I want to see Brave and Firefox fight it off in an ad-blocking-mobile-browser competition to get some more market share, but it seems like iOS users are content with just Safari and ads. Let me put it another way: why has no other browser company released a browser yet? Mozilla is only a small player, after all.

realusername 3mo ago

> One reason is that Apple does not permit regional binaries, so you cannot use the same listing in the EU/Japan/Brazil/whatever other place may force Apple to act sociable and the rest of the world. Well, sounds like the next lawsuit waiting to happen then if the regulations can't be applied because of that

zeratax 3mo ago

Would they actually need to distribute this app outside of the appstore?

jeroenhd 3mo ago
Need to? Probably not. Reynard isn't on the app store, though, so Mozilla's efforts wouldn't be very comparable if it wasn't. Plus, iOS can really use a solid F-Droid alternative.
wolvoleo 3mo ago
No, in the EU they should be able to distribute this

wolvoleo 3mo ago

Hmm it worked for Microsoft and other companies have also done a switch as you pointed out (I remember facebook splitting off messenger and later putting it back). > Furthermore, developers cannot actually use the released app they've made if they're in the US, where a lot of Firefox devs are. Yeah that's a bit insane.

hagbard_c 3mo ago
Well, there's a solution to this: ditch that fruit phone until the fruit factory allows owners to use their hardware with the software they want. Let them click some boxes that yes, they understand that they'll leave the boundaries of fruity fruitland and beyond this checkbox dragons abide so abandon all hope all who enter here but otherwise let them install the software they want. ... Yes, I thought so too, they won't, not without a court order. Now that several courts have ordered such and there is a precedent which makes clear that those dragons aren't all that fierce the fruit factory shouldn't have any excuses any more but that doesn't bother them just as long as the true believers keep on coming for their indulgences. Hence, ditch that thing and maybe they'll get the message.
- ebiester 3mo ago
  Or, perhaps, apple users are rational actors that have different weights to their tradeoffs than you. The last time I checked Android, the security and privacy story was much worse than Apple. Further, it's not just me who has to make the change - it's the family I share photos and videos and other things. Yes, I would prefer to have other App Store options, but it is balanced against other issues. (And yes, I have owned an Android phone before - every time I buy a new phone I compare the two again.)
  - hagbard_c 3mo ago
    Nope, they're not rational actors by supporting marketing-driven limitations. These limitations are not needed to create a well-working device, they're only there to keep the profits up because heavens forbid, someone might offer an alternative which allows users to get their software fix without paying their pound of flesh to the app store. The example you gave on it not just being you who needs to change but the family I share photos and videos and other things [with] is all the more proof that you shouldn't touch these mobile prisons with a 3-metre pole. I share my photos and videos and other things with family as well but I don't care what they're using to access them 'cause I use a (self-hosted, but that is not essential) web service for it. No lock-in, no nothing. If you want to view those photos on your Commodore-64, have at it. There's even apps you can use, including one for those stuck on fruit phones. I don't believe the 'security and privacy' story the fruit factory pushes, there've been far too many examples to disprove the narrative. Not that I trust Google, mind you. I use Android but I do not use Google, do not have a Google account, don't have Google services (etc.) on my devices.

fsuts 3mo ago

On android Mozilla already have Firefox and Firefox focus and Firefox nightly So having two versions on iOS would be fine, and as apps can be limited to only show up in some regions wouldn’t be confusing as many would just see one